yet another question that will probably be easily answered..

[chris_adams]

On page 643(paperback edition), the letter from Whalestoe about Pelafina's death, there are two numbers at the bottom of the page:

#669-951381-6634646-94
#162-111231-1614161-23

Since you can't see the big red question mark hovering over my head I'll just tell you it's there and ask for any thoughts...

-CA01

[Sintina]

Heck, I don't know.... I'm really bad at codes...

I figured it was just her number at the asylum, like prisoners have numbers in jail. I din't think anything of it. But someone else may have... anyone?

[Bok]

My first thought that it would be an ISBN-number of another book. However, I checked this, and noticed it is not a valid ISBN :-(( Maybe I'll get a better idea soon..

[kingfrogger]

Hello, everyone... I'm new to this board, this being my first post.

I'm only on pg. 340 of the book, but I've already (as per the "editors'" suggestions) read through the 'Whalestoe Letters' and skimmed the rest of Appendices A and B. So far, I think this book is one of the best that I've read, both based on content and on the complexity and structure with which it has been written.

As to the question: I don't suppose that the numbers could possibly represent some hexidecimal code, possibly? I'm not too Internet-savvy anymore, but it's just a thought...? images/smiles/icon_confused.gif images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[Kelley]

I don't really know how CD's are catagorized and stuff, but maybe they are Poe's CD's or the promotional cd's??

Just an Idea.

[TG]

They're not UPC codes, because they stop at a maximum 13 numbers.

So we have that they're not UPC codes, or ISBN numbers. images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

*wishes he had his copy of the book back now*

[litesneeze]

Well, my only thought when I first saw those two numbers is, maybe it has to do with a case number. When papers are sent from a coroner's office, they go by numbers (and names). Maybe it's just a number... maybe more, I'm not sure yet. I'm staring at the numbers either til they move or I figure it out.
~Eric

[uxorius]

could it be Kaballa??

[girl2]

kaballa??

[girl2]

kay, sorry for double posting, but here's a desperate attempt at a solution:

first #: 669-951381-6634646-94
add each of the number sets together individually, and you get: 6+6+9=21, 9+5+1+3+8+1=27, 6+6+3+4+6+4+6=35, and 9+4=13 and then add the sums together individually: 21+27+35+13=96.

if you flip to page 96, it is has that one little quirky comment that makes us believe the ending of zampano's original navidson record has been changed: "A few months later Navidson saw the kiss. By that time Karen was gone along with everything else. Nothing mattered."

*gasp*

umm, this may just be a coincidence discovered by an obsessed holie with too much time on her hands, or it may be a pointer leading us in the direction of that undeniable truth we are all searching for. errrrr, i'll leave it up to you kids to decide what to make of it! =]

oh yah, and if you do the same thing with the second set of #'s, you get page 43, where johnny talks about being alone in hell. coincidence? hmm...

[Jessie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by uxorius:
could it be Kaballa??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I REALLY like your idea primarily because both Kabbalah and House Of Leaves share one common denominator in the form of The Tree Of Life.
The circles of the Sefirot have letters to coincide with the numerical value of each circle...the nine circles sharing parallels with the Holy Trinity.
I was goofing around and trying to see how to apply the numbers from Pelafinas case as listed above and came across something very interesting.
It is interesting because of the continuous religious themes that present themselves throughout the story.
If you add all of the numbers together you get 139...as I dug through various religious texts I came across something I had dogeared months ago in my blue letter bible{I was thunder struck by parts 9 and 13 as they relate to Navidson in particular}

PSALM 139
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].

Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways.

Psa 139:4 For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

Psa 139:6 [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou [art there].

Psa 139:9 [If] I take the wings of the morning, [and] dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light [are] both alike [to thee].

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.

Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.

Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Psa 139:18 [If] I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Psa 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

Psa 139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, [and] thine enemies take [thy name] in vain.

Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Psa 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Psa 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

Psa 139:24 And see if [there be any] wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


In the Kabbalistic realm, Psalm 139 feeds into the idea of Gods omnipresence, this ties into the 10th circle of the Sefira;
the 10th sephira, MALKUTH, the *kindgom* of God, is the basis of all material creation. We experience Malkuth as sense consciousness.

[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[girl2]

informational diva jessie, i'm looking online and just not getting it. i'm not religious, what is kaballah? i tried reading up, but didn't find anything about it having to do with numbers...

help!

[Jessie]

From an article called Esoterica;
Kabalah is primarily the study of God's relationship with the universe and how we, as humans, can attain closeness with God. Kabalah deals, in part, with the conflict between the transcendental and unknowable nature of God, and His relationship with the finite universe and human beings in particular. It is an extremely esoteric study which requires extensive knowledge of the entire corpus of Jewish teachings, including the Scriptures, the Talmud, and halachic literature. Without this background the study of Kabalah will generally be counterproductive, since the concepts are extremely difficult.
Kabalah is often confused with mysticism, however the two are actually quite different. Mysticism is based on the belief that knowledge can only be attained through achieving union with God through visions, or other semi-prophetic methods. While such experiences play an important role in Kabalah, the essence of Kabalah is received knowledge, which is what the word Kabalah means.

Kabalah predates Chasidus by millennia. Kabballistic concepts can be found in Scripture. Perhaps the most explicitly Kabalistic section of the Bible can be found in the first chapter of Ezekiel, where Ezekiel describes the Divine "Chariot".

http://www.crystalinks.com/tolsnake.gif

The Kabala or "Tree of Life" being symbolic of the origin of all things from The OneSource found its expression in many ways in the religious art and folklore everywhere, which one could say, provides an example of a racial subconsciousness manifesting itself, and is well known from the story of Eve. The "Tree", therefore, can be seen in many old murals and engravings sometimes as a vine or twin vines,and often in churches. The Tree and The Serpent are often seen together and most noteworthy in the Caduceus of Mercury which derives from the Sephiroth as twin serpents wound twice round the Tree of Life, but presented in a simplified form with one snake in relation to medicine and pharmaceuticals. The Tree is also present in The Nordic Myths in The Ygddrasil Tree which had its roots in heaven sending its branches down to earth in keeping with the kabalistic notion, inverted but the idea is essentially the same. Odin,The Father of the gods, had to hang from the Tree and sacrifice an eye before the world could be created.The Tree is representative of the branching out of Life from the The One Source with roots in the higher dimensions"
"The word 'Qabala' finds its root in the Hebrew word 'Qibel'
meaning 'to receive by oral tradition'.

This receiving refers to an oral tradition of esoteric or secret knowledge concerning 'essentially' the mysteries of Nature, and more overtly, the hidden teachings concerning the Hebrew Torah. The Torah is, of course, the first five books of what Christians call the Old Testament, and the oldest surviving of the Judaic liturgical texts.

The Kabala is an ancient Hebrew mystical system of thought. It is a symbolic representation of the path the Divine followed in the creation of the universe, including man. It is, by definition, humanity's process of returning to divinity along the same path.

Kabbala, also spelled KABALA, KABBALAH, CABALA, CABBALA, OR CABBALAH, is an esoteric Jewish mysticism as it appeared in the 12th and following centuries. Kabbala has always been essentially an oral tradition in that initiation into its doctrines and practices is conducted by a personal guide to avoid the dangers inherent in mystical experiences.

Esoteric Kabbala is also "tradition" inasmuch as it lays claim to secret knowledge of the unwritten Torah (divine revelation) that was communicated by God to Moses and Adam. Though observance of the Law of Moses remained the basic tenet of Judaism, Kabbala provided a means of approaching God directly."

MORE INFORMATION ON KABALA (http://www.1800ketubah.com/giclee_collection/Kabbalah/main.html)

[ August 04, 2002: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[benzelbub]

as somebody who has done time at an office job, i have to say that those codes just look like plain old inter-office routing numbers, in other words, when a memo or letter is distributed to another party, those codes represent (somehow, don't ask me, i was a temp)info about where the item is sent to and from...again i could be wrong, or i could be right and those numbers could still be some sort of code...

[Agrimorfee]

I am of the belief that the numbers are just window-dressing, to add to the "realness" of the document.

I immediately tried my favorite code method of corresponding letter substitution ("A=1, B=2, C=3, ETC.) but it didn't work.

[girl2]

but nothing in this book is just random, right?

even if they are the numbers identifying the whalestoe's inter-office memo for pelafina's death, mzd HAD to pick those numbers for some special reason!

it can't just be random, dammit!

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by agrimorfee:
...A=1, B=2, C=3, ETC...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone has played Dino Crisis waaay too much... images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[sp0k3n_4]

Has anyone noticed the letter on pg 639 doesn't have the numbers at the bottom?

[fatwoul]

Hey yeah you're right, sp0k3n_4 (and your name is what, exactly?! images/smiles/icon_wink.gif).

Thats a really good point - same format letter from same guy, but no numbers.

Cool.

[sp0k3n_4]

Actually the letter on pg 639 is from a different director whose name is blanked out. They announce retirement and tell of a new director, David J. Draines, taking their place. Who knows if that has anything to do with anything :-P

anyways. . .oh yeah. . .and my name. . .I am spoken for images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[fatwoul]

...and the second guy (who P doesn't like so much?) has less letters after his name.

Is this another example of how fond she is of learning, that she prefers the more qualified director?

[sp0k3n_4]

What I don't understand is that in P's pg 642 letter, she states that the old director and the new director are the same. She says she thinks she upset him and commits suicide the next day. . . .hmmmmm

I think there is something big in these few pages, but I can't quite put my finger on it. . .

[fatwoul]

I thought it was to do with her realisation that it was not the Director who changed but her which is why I had never paid any attention to the credentials of the two directors - I always assumed they were the same guy through the changing eyes of a mad woman.

[girl2]

what's the quote? the famous one?

"the old boss, same as the new boss"? or something like that...

[fatwoul]

What quote? How about:

"Physics is to maths what sex is to masturbation" - Feynman

No wait. Maybe you want a quote from HOL...

sorry

[Jessie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fatwoul:
"Physics is to maths what sex is to masturbation" - Feynman
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BRILLIANT!
Are you a scientist???
I have had the biggest crush on Richard Feynman for years, when saw your quote I had to comment.
I read his best friends book Tuva Or Bust and saw the Broadway play starring Alan Alda...Feynman was a beautiful man and a sensual poet and I bow to you for honoring him on this bbs.

[Ken Kaminski]

I don't have the knowledge base to decode numbers or draw connections to the Bible, so I just wanted to add my moral support and say that you people are doing very interesting work. I did notice that the exact same word is used to describe the sound inside the house AND the sound that Johnny remembers his mother making when she was taken away. Based on this, I've come to the conclusion that the house is Pelafina.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jessie:
Are you a scientist???
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I am. But even if I wasn't I'd still think Feynman was cool. There used to be a board in our common room where you could put up quotes by famous physicists etc - that one was there for a long time.

Sorry for disrupting the thread guys, but I couldn't PM Jessie.

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: fatwoul ]

[girl2]

*puts fatwoul and jessie in thread disruption prison*

take that! bwa ha ha ha ha!

errr... what was the thread about again?

oh yah, the silly numbers... maybe they are a key to direct us to which of the words on page 633 have meaning! or maybe they relate to something on a different page, something we're not even thinking about!

hmmm...

[Jessie]

Actually Richard Feynman DOES fit this particular thread especially with regard to his lectures on God, the universe and infinity.
In fact I found a collection of poetry that incorporates Feynman and a few other items and/or people that will look familiar to anyone who has spent any time in the house on Ash Tree Lane.

STARLIGHT, STARBRIGHT
"What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane or amonia must be silent?"-R. Feynman
Nightfall, a friendly ash,
sticks to everything: makes
me think of heaven. The dumb
stars too are hopeless. Only Greeks
flimsy with evidence, connected the dots;
sketched imaginary companions like children.
Nowadays mad gravity dominates
even the scattered heavens; the black
hole, where spacetime sleeps
crunched like a button, embraces light:
an eye gone stomach.
Do I have to say it? Some people
like this sort of thing. But they too
die and find themselves nowhere.

That poem is from a collection called The Lust For Blue Prints

"The world looks so different after learning science.
For example, trees are made of air, primarily. When they are burned, they go back to air, and in the flaming heat is released the flaming heat of the sun which was bound in to convert the air into tree. [A]nd in the ash is the small remnant of the part which did not come from air, that came from the solid earth, instead.

These are beautiful things, and the content of science is wonderfully full of them. They are very inspiring, and they can be used to inspire others."
-Richard Feynman

ASH-The Great Blaze Of Heaven (http://www.geocities.com/annafranklin1/ash.html)

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[fatwoul]

Here's another poem that mentions stars:

"They're holes in the sky
Where the rain gets in
But they're very very small
Which is why rain is thin."

- Spike Milligan

Which is also kinda related to this thread because he also spent time in mental hospitals.

[Jessie]

I am LOVING you. I read Spike Milligans version of Treasure Island in which "Spike" incredulously manages to weave Groucho Marx into the story.
As to Kabbalah and Richard Feynman, I have been digging for more and fully expect to reach China by dusk.
Quantum physics has many similarities to Kabbalah, not least of which is that the more you study it the less you understand it. Physicist Richard Feynman once said that anyone who tell you they understand quantum physics is either lying or crazy. With that caveat, perhaps the secret lies in trying to understand both Kabbalah and quantum physics at the same time. Because it turns out that one of the elements intrinsic to existence is also a fundamental element of Kabbalah, and that it potentially connects this cutting-edge scientific understanding of consciousness to a rich Jewish mystical tradition of more than 2000 years.
Quantum physics starts with a conundrum: objects can be in two places at once. This violates our basic understanding of the way the world works. How can anything be in two places at once? This is busyness not even a Palm handheld can create-and yet, in quantum physics, at the smallest level, we have observed for a century the apparent anomaly that objects exist in two places at once, called quantum superposition. Because of Einstein's concept of general relativity, the curving of spacetime leads to the fact that all mass-that is, all material in the universe-actually consists of energy, and that energy can, in fact, exist in two places simultaneously. So, in theory, if you were a quantum human being, you actually could be in two places at once.
As crazy as this sounds to us, quantum effects have been measured for a century. They clearly exist. Particles in a quantum state are both here and there, superpostitioned in both places.
the theory is that consciousness is a kind of quantum effect. When those qualia, the building blocks of conscious experience are accessed and chosen, there is a kind of bubble in spacetime-a bending in the fabric of the universe in two ways at the same time-which allows for a quantum effect to take place. We choose among qualia-aesthetic or moral choices-that are part of the fundamental spacetime material of the universe. Our consciousness is composed of our individual brain's activities coupled to self-organizing ripples in fundamental reality; in other words, we choose elements of consciousness, and at the same time we are completely connected to the entirety of consciousness at that very moment.
I'm reminded of the kinds of human connections we have with our parents and our children. Picture the early stages of life as a kind of quantum relationship, deeply interconnected; and know that as life goes on that enmeshment diminishes, as the child grows and becomes interested in outside environmental factors and the physical and immediate quantum parenting state melts away. And yet you continue to feel quite connected, at some level always entangled, without even being in the same time zone.
There is in Jewish mysticism a long-held belief that we are all interconnected, that in creating this universe God implanted everywhere within it divine sparks, sacred elements within the fabric of energy that makes up all creation. Non-Kabbalists have accepted this understanding as well,

There are close parallels, in fact, throughout the Kabbalistic understanding of God and this understanding of consciousness, that are astounding. In Kabbalah, the universe is composed of sefirot, spheres of existence, that are made up of energy and possess circular motion-spin, in physics terms. These sefirot, these spheres are connected, yet distinct, located in a variety of places both above us and within us and yet simultaneously linked to the Ein Sof, the Divine Source of all energy, and thus linked to all creation.

A fascinating parallel: in Kabbalah, the emanation of the Divine takes the form of energy, and usually of light. There are many words for light in Jewish mysticism, from A to Z, or to ziv, if you will, and each expresses in one way or another the constant flow or emanation of that light as a continuous Divine process. In Hameroff's microtubule work-those tiny substructures that form the basis for all cellular organization-he believes that the microtubules themselves may convey information by means of quantum light effects, something like lasers, within the neural pathways. That is, that there is going on within us at all times a kind of light emanation which is the absolute key to consciousness. So, too, in Lurianic Kabbalah: light conveys God's presence, and flows continuously in a state of quantum mystical connection. God is everywhere-but more accurately, God's connections are everywhere, if we know what's going on. I hope to further explore these Kabbalistic/consciousness connections in a course in our Adult Education Academy this spring...

But you need not be a Kabbalist to find profound Jewish parallels to consciousness studies. Baruch Spinoza, the great 17th century Dutch Jewish philosopher, believed that there were motes of God in all of us, that these could become active if we chose to activate them. And most tellingly, Maimonides, the great medieval Jewish philosopher and legalist, a rationalist who certainly never embraced mysticism, understood revelation as "an overflow" coming from God to us. Our human goal, for the Rambam, was to seek to unify our minds into a perfect connection with the Divine. In effect, to try to move into a quantum state of existence, in superposition with God. The description that is used in the Guide to the Perplexed is "flow", that the ideal human mind is in a state of flow with the great mind; that is, God. Our own consciousness is dependent on finding a way to connect with God in the world, to sense the interconnectedness of all things, to touch the holy and Divine solely by becoming aware of its presence.

What does this flow, this interconnection of all consciousness have to do with us? Well, potentially, only everything. For the central goal of Yom Kippur is to arouse our own awareness, our own consciousness of holiness and God in this world. And if we can become aware of what seems to be both a religious truth and a scientific one-that we are connected to all awareness, and that consciousness is an implicit gift of our universe and our God-well, then we may actually come to live lives that reflect that constant presence.

There is a beautiful passage that describes true prayer in a Hasidic work called Liqutim Yekarim, published in Lvov in 1863.


The purpose of all prayer is to uplift the words,

To return them to their Source above.

The world was created by the downward flow of letters:

Our task is to form those letters into words

And take them back to God.

If you come to know this dual process,

Your prayer may be joined

To the constant flow of Creation--

Word to word, voice to voice,

Breath to breath, thought to thought.



The words fly upward and come before God

As God turns to look at the ascending word,

Life flows through all the worlds

And prayer receives its answer.

All this happens in an instant

And all this happens continually;

Time has no meaning in the sight of God.

The divine spring is ever-flowing;

Make yourself into a channel

To receive the energy* from above.

"I wonder why I wonder why. I wonder why I wonder. I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!"
-Richard Feynman

[ August 06, 2002: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jessie:
[b]Quantum physics starts with a conundrum: objects can be in two places at once...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Or in two states at once. Like Schroedinger's Cat being both dead and alive until the box is opened. Funny how that takes us back to cats. I wonder if Zampano ever put any of his cats in boxes, or whether MZD will ever let the cat out of the bag.

[Lantern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fatwoul:
Like Schroedinger's Cat being both dead and alive until the box is opened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or how Navy, Karen and the kids lived or died depending on Z's mood and J's edits....

[fatwoul]

...In fact that is an important point (perhaps) for all those people desperate to find an answer to HOL - that there might not be any one answer, but rather a plethora of different solutions, all existing at the same time, but only any one visible to a reader at one time.

The physicist has the dilemma in quantum mechanics that any one variable cannot be measured physically without altering that variable.

As such, maybe the only way to truly know "the solution" to HOL would be to have never read it.

OK so maybe thats a little tongue-in-cheek but you lot know what I mean. images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Ken Kaminski]

Jessie: I've been toying with determinism for quite some time now, and the stuff you mentioned about the quantum nature of consciousness seems to be contradicting that. Do you have more information about this that I could look at?

[Jessie]

I am in way over my head here but it is making me a much stronger swimmer.
There are two books I would recommend but you probably know about them already;
The Emperor's New Mind (1989),
and
Shadows of the Mind (1994),
Both are by Roger Penrose
MORE ON ROGER PENROSE (http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~philos/MindDict/quantum.html)
QUANTUM PSYCHOLOGY (http://www.quantumpsychology.com/MentalModeling.html)
Try this (and the websites below);
Alternative to Quantum Consciousness

Under the current physics perspectives on consciousness, led variously by Wigner, Frolich, Stapp, Hammeroff and Penrose, Josephson, among others, concerns focus on 2 characteristics identified with "consciousness". The first is its quality of temporal asymmetry, being a seemingly very deterministic time-forward phenomenon. Yet it is built on organelles and organs which are sensitive to quantum perturbations. So, consciousness is treated as the premiere biological venue in which to resolve the decades and century old problem of thermodynamic determinism vs quantum mechanical stochasticity.

Stapp in particular evaluates the qualé-conscious event as being a "collapse of the wave function" (to put it in theoretical terms). Now that is a possibility because as of this moment in time, that is the only event recognized as a transduction mechanism, changing QM states into thermodynamic sequences. However, in light of the philosophical evaluation in this paper, consciousness necessarily must be a continuum of transitting information (nee, energy).

That means that even with the Hamiltonian super-position quality of wave functions under QM analysis, consciousness requires the on-goingness of wave functions, not a new-binding process that somehow re-connects separated quantum collapses.

The above Demon-Turing analysis indicates that it is reiterated self-resonating fluid wave functions which enact "consciousness". Quantum non-locality and such may play significant roles, but the backbone framework of consciousness rests on some mechanism which is tautologically self impacting and reinforcing. Now that may be anathema to generations of philosophers who decry bootstrap escherian verification. Yet existentially, we cannot ask that systems are insensitive to their own functions. Indeed, no behaviorally consistent systems can endure let alone exist without self-referencing as a priori.
CEPTUAL INSTITUTE (http://www.ceptualinstitute.com)
MAXWELLS DEMON & THE TURING MACHINE (http://www.ceptualinstitute.com/uiu_plus/turingdemon.htm)
Also you HAVE GOT TO FIND Douglas Hofstadters book Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid. It is referenced in House Of Leaves and I think it plays a role in this particular thread dealing with consciousness, God and infinity.

[girl2]

yay for jessie, thanks for enlightening us all! i think that kaballah/quantum physics stuff just made me the most interested in science i've been since 9th grade...

how everyone is saying that quantum theory explains how two of the same cat could exist, or two different endings to the same story could exist, what about two different versions of the same person existing? is that too far of a stretch?

[Jessie]

...and this brings us to the issue of "toes" Navidsons problem toes and the whale of one that houses Pelafina.
In physics there is also a toe, rather a T.O.E
It is the Theory Of Everything.
The physicist Stephan Hawking has equated the T.O.E with God..."a single theory that physicists hope will one day unite general relativity with quantum mechanics, thereby bringing the entire universe under one grand mathematical umbrella. This theory is a major goal of contemporary theoretical physics, and it is this which Hawking has famously linked to "the mind of God". Perhaps more than any other science, cosmology is a case where one can either see God reflected in the picture, or not. In the end, science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. More often than not, the scientific evidence can be read either way."
I seem to recall reading an interview with MZD where he mentioned the sumptuous book The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene...it is interesting to note Mr. Greenes feelings about T.O.E.s in relation to MZD's words about the interpretations his readers will come away with when they are "done" exploring his house .
On the Theory Of Everything Mr. Greene wrote;
"I don't actually believe there is a "theory of everything." I believe that we'll probably be able to get closer and closer to a true description of how the world works as we continue to do research. But I do feel that there isn't going to be a final explanation, and there may in fact be many final explanations each of which is equally valid, but each of which is totally different from one another, and there is simply no way to distinguish them. In terms of how they describe the world around us, they'll all come to the same conclusion but from very different points of view."


Now, grab some goggles, fasten your seat belt and get on this ride;
TOES AND THE YGGDRASIL (http://members.aol.com/yggdras/paraphysics/toe1.htm)
this website is brilliant and very helpful
TOE consciousness (http://www.angelfire.com/hi/TheSeer/cosmos.html)

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[girl2]

wow, jessie, that is a truly gorgeous poem. i'm copying it down and keeping it in my pocket for a few days. =]

can i share your crush on this guy?

[fatwoul]

Theory of Everything is indeed a name for a theory that brings together everything in a neat package. However, "Theory of Everything" is a more fashionable term, I suspect used to make science in general look more approachable.
Steven Hawking (among many others, including my lecturers/colleagues) tended to refer to this mythical theory by a name that denotes another part of the body. We referred to it as a "Grand Unified Theory", or G.U.T. One guy even had a crappy T-shirt that said:

G.U.T. Feeling

Any mention of that part of anatomy anywhere?

I also find it amusing to talk about TOEs and GUTs considering so many people in these threads are obsessively searching for a HOL unifying theory, when there may be none. I would love there to be, but IMHO there isn't.

On another note, we were talking in another thread recently about Whale's Toe, but I hadn't thought about the relation of this to Navy's gammy feet. The quote at the beginning of the Whalestoe letters I thought was handy was apologies for typing it again):

"...love inhabits more than just the heart and mind. If need be it can take shelter in a big toe."

Does Navidsons problem with his toes suggest that he has a problem with love? We knew that already I guess.

Alternatively, has anyone heard the expression (not to mention contemporary hymn) "God is Love"?

If we take this literally, the quote could be written like this:

"...God inhabits more than just the heart and mind. If need be it can take shelter in a big TOE."

In other words, maybe scientists are not searching for a Theory of Everything/Grand Unified Theory, maybe deep down they are searching for God. Maybe they will find God when they discover their Theory.

But then, the theory would include their own creation. So, maybe its more even than this - maybe the Theory is God.

[Ken Kaminski]

That's actually more like the quantum consciousness stuff I've heard about before. The way you stated it previously, you seemed to imply that there was room for free will in quantum sensitivity. It's pretty obvious by this point that the human mind is apparently not "deterministic" in the truest sense of the word, since knowing everything about it's state at one instant won't tell you it's future states or it's passed states. However, consciousness still appears to be caused by the laws of physics and stuff, so "choice" still appears to be nothing more than a cause-and-effect physical and partially quantum process, as opposed to the outcome of free will.

This next paragraph is going to make me sound like a jerk-off, and it really has absolutely nothing to do with HoL, but Greene is wrong. We can never know if any human idea, even scientific ones, touch upon the true nature of the universe. The problem is one of the phenomena vs the noumena, terms applied by Emmanuel Kant in reviving the reasoning of the Skeptics from ancient Greece. The universe that we experience is entirely phenomenal. The instruments we use to measure it and magnify it are also phenomenal. Opposed to that is the noumena, reality as it really is, which produces the phenomena. Anything we do is within the phenomenal universe, so we'll never know if it's also what the noumena is like. It may be the noumena produces an accurate impression of itself, but maybe not. It's a question that's impossible to answer. Even if you experience something ELSE that's different that the phenomena and appears to be what's producing it, it doesn't mean you've seen the noumena. It might just be different phenomena.

Therefore, all human knowledge is nothing more than speculation. It's reasonable to base your speculation on the phenomenal universe, since by definition that's all we can experience, but even then there's all sorts of Derrida-ish and semiological reasons not to trust science, and this has a little something to do with HoL. Even within the phenomenal universe, our perception is filtered through our consciousness and, according to biologists of all people, translated into linguistic signs. We then represent them and our conclusions about them into further simplified linguistic signs, those of our language. It appears therefore that science, as a system, can't even be trusted to accurately represent the phenomenal universe.

This is related to HoL because it seems to be a post-modern study of the nature of semiotic signs and symbols. It contains, in fact, the most amusing and potent example of why language is only representative and not definitive of it's meaning: using braille to describe the smoothness of the walls. The braille has none of the characterstics of it's translation, in fact it has exactly the opposite. That's true of all language, no word except onomatopiea has any of the characteristics of what it means.

[hello?]

Isn't it rather ironic that this topic is called "yet another question that will probably be easily answered?"

[verismo]

Yeah, so did we figure out what those goddamn numbers are? Is it really a Kabbalah thing?

[girl2]

verismo, i looked into it quite a bit, and i think that if it is a kabbalah thing, it is WAY over my head. its really complicated.

i'm guessing the numbers aren't kabbalah, just because the jewish faith doesn't seem to play a prominent role in the book. *shrug* its cool idea, but couldn't there be a simpler one?

it'd be interesting to find information about how many numbers make up sequences for certain government labelling systems. pelican bay prison is mentioned, right? what if that is a specific prisoner's id? a freeway mile marker somewhere (heh)? just guesses, but they might be worth checking into... they seriously can't just be random numbers, dammit!

[Yggdrasil]

bumpity bump bump

[Darwinn]

This is about the most amazing post I've ever read. I've been around the forums for quite some time now but just sorta always sat back and watched. I had to create a user just for this thread. Wow I'd really like to sit down with Jessie and pick her brain apart. Amazing thoughts. Still nothing solid on the numbers though?

[heartbreak]

#669-951381-6634646-94
#162-111231-1614161-23

Not that it helps us get any farther on this, but page 643 is actually the 669th page in the book.

[benedict]

Not that it helps us get any farther on this, but page 643 is actually the 669th page in the book.
wow, the previous post before yours was a long time ago.

[heartbreak]

wow, the previous post before yours was a long time ago.


*nods* This was the only thread I could find on the topic.

[fearful_syzygy]

Yeah, there was this one (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4552), in which I linked to that other (extremely helpfully titled) one (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2909), but ultimately it just linked to this thread.

::shrugs::

[heartbreak]

thanks f_s, you're right not much else over on those, but thanks for pointing them out

[Summiner]

If you take the numbers:

669-951381-6634646-94
162-11231-1614161-23

Count the numbers in each section: 3 6 7 2

Add them togather: 3 + 6 + 7 + 2 = 18

Then for each of the lines: 18 + 18 = 36

Now if we take the origional numbers again, act as if they are hex and convert them into binary you get:

00010110 00100001 00010001 00100011 00010001 01100001 01000001 00000000 00000000

and

01101001 10010101 00010011 10000001 01100110 00110100 01100100 00000000 0000

Convert the binary to decimal:

22 33 17 35 17 97 65 0 0

and

105 149 19 129 102 52 100 0 0

Add these numbers up:

22 + 33 + 17 + 35 + 17 + 97 + 65 + 0 + 0 = 286

and

105 + 149 + 19 + 129 + 102 + 52 + 100 + 0 + 0 = 655

Add the totals: 286 + 655 = 941


Multiply the total: 9 * 4 * 1 = 36


So you see after doing some conversions and adding I come up with the number 36, which in itself I can find no meaning.

[Ellimist]

Haven't I seen that somewhere before? Or the same sort of numerology?

[Davinche]

3+6=9

[murasamune]

-disappointed-

[NeoTsunami]

Multiply the total: 9 * 4 * 1 = 36


So you see after doing some conversions and adding I come up with the number 36, which in itself I can find no meaning.

Interesting thing i just found out about this particular number, there is another way to get 36...

If you consider the hyphens as minus signs and add everything up it gives you -7 585 452 if you take it as absolute value (no minus sign) and add these numbers 7+5+8+5+4+5+2 = 36.

It's interesting but i don't think it means anything. I mean page 36 just talks about Truant's adventure with Chrsitina and Amber nothing too important there...maybe taking eveey 36th letter? or every 36th word?

Frankly I think this'll end up being something like 42 in The Hitchhiker's Guide. When asked on this particular topic Douglas Adams said something like "I just sat there and thought, I need a two digit number...hmmm..42 sounds nice. No base 13 additions, or any other hidden meanings to it. It's just a number I chose."

[beanmarine101]

669-951381-6634646-94
162-11231-1614161-23
––––––––––––––––––––
507-940150-5020485-71

or

(669-951381-6634646-94) - (162-11231-1614161-23)
Which yields: -7 585 452 + 162 + 11231 + 1614161 + 23
= - 5 959 875?

Hmm. Lets compare the third set of digits in each:
6 6 3 4 6 4 6
1 6 1 4 1 6 1

6 6 3 4
1 1 1 1 ...BFD.

Well, lets compare them all, cancelling all like numbers in a given set.

669-951381-6634646-94
162-(0)11231-1614161-23

69-958-6634-94
12-12-1111-23 ...subtract?
–––––––––––––
57-946-5523-71 ...awesome.

Let's try taking the first digit of each sequence, I guess.

669-951381-6634646-94 ->6 9 6 9
162-11231-1614161-23 -> 1 1 1 2 (note the two 11s and two 12s in 12-12-1111-23)

Let's try the second digit of each sequence.
6 5 6 4
6 1 6 2

For the hell of it, lets cancel the 6s.
5 4
1 2 -> subtract

42! So the book = life. Anyone want to try and stretch farther?

[fearful_syzygy]

:icon_neutral: :eusa_eh: :icon_confused:

[heartbreak]

:icon_neutral: :eusa_eh: :icon_confused:

That was pretty much my thoughts as well.

[heartbreak]

An idea. (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showpost.php?p=124664&postcount=8)

(I often miss when those forums farther down on the list get posted to, so thought I would link here for those that experience the same.)

(Actually, I am just trying to increase my post count.)

;)