Serious Book!

[nikhsub1]

Man what a book! Took me a while but what a ride.

[MicheleVR5]

Come on Scott, tell us how you really feel images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Frustrated, lost, scared etc...)

Thanks for getting this place up and running!

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: MicheleVR5 ]

[Inanna]

Has anyone figured out the code in all of those names? images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

I really loved the book. It took me less than a week to read - I was like a fiend! Why did Zampano cross out the passages about the minotaur and the labyrinth. Has anyone else heard the theory about King Minos' son really being deformed or was that the author's own interpretation?

This is my first post and I'd just like to say hi to everyone! <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

[brokenangel420]

hey-
how is everyone today?!?! the book has been kick ass so far...im on page 281 and its starting to really get good. From what i hear is it turns out really good too...NEway im new to this post board thing..so just wanted to say hey....

[MicheleVR5]

Hey Inanna! This is the clue given from the one who discovered the code[1]:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
It's in footnote 75 on page 64. It's only three words (9 letters) long and pretty hard to find because it's hidden in a long list. But it is there. Consider the first few entries in a long list of names.

For the answer, check out Exploration Z (http://houseofleaves.4t.com/). Of course I suggest you struggle with it a bit first before you look images/smiles/icon_smile.gif It seems so easy with the clue, yet it took me like 15 minutes to figure it out.

[1]See the original thread on the p-o-e board (http://www.p-o-e.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000125.html)

[paradoxxx]

you know i was reading this book and it was twisted in its own right--slightly disturbing at times--ingenious in and of itself--but its nothing so extraordinary as everyone makes it appear to be. i thought the book was great, personally, but it was overambitious in many features. did anyone really read that whole discussion on echoes? did anyone care to see those pages of names? my humble opinion of course.

[MicheleVR5]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
did anyone really read that whole discussion on echoes?

I did. Sound is supposed to be all Zampano has to go on when it comes to the movie.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
did anyone care to see those pages of names?

Not until a member of the p-o-e.com board (http://www.p-o-e.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi) pointed out that there's a code in it. Even then it's pretty minor.

(Don't mind me, I'm trying to get rid of my Junior status)

[Kelley]

There is also a code in the whalestoe Letters about Zampano, which makes you think, how would Pelfina know Zampano, and it makes you start thinking all over again. I can't remember exactly where it is, but it's in Exploration Z along with the others.

[chris_adams]

Well it looks like I have a bit more reading to do. I read through the book in a bit of a hurry I guess and missed the majority of the codes and the links to Poe's Haunted.

So back into the House I go. And they say that everytime you read the Bible you find something new...

-CA01

[gothesss]

Hello all. This is my first post. I started the book yesterday (on pg 155 now) and WOW what a book.

In reply to the post about Pelafina knowing Zampano: did anyone notice the whole theme of the big toe? First Johnny, when he freaks out and spills the ink, says his toe hurts. Then MZD takes you to the Appendix and you read that Pelafina closes her letter with "love inhabits more than just the heart and mind. If need be it can take shelter in a big toe." THEN, Navidson has a major problem with his toes...

Hmmmmmm... any comments? I think it has to do with the underlying theme of the mind, sould and body.

Cheers!
Lucy (not Luxy... I can't type!)

[Sintina]

Very happy with the book!
I read through the whole thing and I'm all done now. I think everybody takes this book in a different way, and no two people probably ever read it in the same order or in the same way. I read all the echoes stuff... it was interesting as were a lot of the things most people found boring in Zampano's analysis. I didn't get into any of the codes, and I probably never will. I always wonder what website or bookstore Navidson must have grabbed his book from though... that was so weird/cool when I found out what book he was reading in the House!!!!

So much about this book kicked ass. For a while I thought Zampano had to be related to Johnny somehow. Danielewski just twisted and turned and played with my mind so much!!!

images/smiles/icon_eek.gif Loved the book!

[Bok]

Hi,

I actually read all the text that can be found (except the hex-code) when I read the book the first time. At that time, I didn't know there were codes hidden in the texts :-(

I started reading it for the second time a week ago, and must admit that I'm a but lazy this time: I'm skipping some of the footnotes. This forum teaches me that it might be wiser to pay extra attention to some of the footnotes, so I'll read it for a third time soon. Thanks!

[Hemann]

Lucy: yeah, I noticed the toe thing. You'll notice also that the name of the alylum is WhalesTOE. That's one big toe. As far as it being connected to a mind, soul, body underlying theme...perhaps. Considered its relation to the theme of "shelter" (index helps).

Sintina: I think you're right on that no two people read the book the same way, and I think that's a key to understanding how the book stands in relation to the concept of the novel. A couple of relevant quotes from the book: footnote 135, particulary the struck lines; 140, struck lines; page 165; Leslie Stern's coment at the end of Karen Green's "What some Have Thought", p. 365. There are more, but I can't find them at the moment. (Besides, I get the feeling you already noticed them).

Inanna: The theory of that King Minos' child was deformed can be found in footnote 123. As far as I know, there is no classical tradition of this version of the myth. Of course, I could be wrong.

Did anybody else notice the check mark on page 97? Thoughts on its relation to SOS? images/smiles/icon_wink.gif images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[pshairyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Did anybody else notice the check mark on page 97? Thoughts on its relation to SOS?

there's a part about that in the letters (609), where p tells johnny to put a checkmark if he got the letter

my question is, why in ch 13 are there numbers on the left side of every few paragraphs?

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: pshairyn ]

[JG]

I completely missed the numbers in chapter 13. I am on my second read through of HOL and find it totally enthralling. I also recently bought The Whalestoe Letters and found them to be beautiful and haunting.

What has me going in provrebial mental circles is the thought that maybe Pelafina's character is the one that made up all of the others. A few things she has written in her letters makes one wonder....

Anyone? Anyone?

[chris_adams]

Actually incasol, I was thinking the same thing, only about Johnny. I thought that his mental illness (and lets face it, he definately has one) combined with the letters from the Whale, allowed Johnny to create Zampano and the whole Navidson Record story. And like Pelafina he is definately well read and highly literate, so he could have written it...but all of this (like much of what we post on these forums) is speculation.

-CA01

[gothesss]

I am on page 300-something now, and I'm getting the distinct feeling that Pelafina is the author. I think the various characters are so related to her that it would be impossible for it to be Johnny.

I admit, though, I change my mind often as I get further along.

The considerations so far:

Johny so much like his mother... the way he writes, the mental issues... and there's some reference to strangulation being the "end" of him (and it's the way Pelafina dies).
Zampano is such a vague, almost imaginary character.
Navidson's wife seems like the sane version of Pelafina.

Plus the references to the book "writing" Johnny and Zampano.

Just a guess, this is my first time through and I'm reading for the total picture, not details.

[Sintina]

Hemann: You thought something I said made sense? Wow... that's a first for me!!!
**does a spirited dance for everyone's enjoyment**

As far as P. being the creator of the whole thing... I don't know. I never thought about it. And personally, I think she has more in common with Daisy then with Karen. Think about it... Daisy has enough problems in her childhood to make her grow up to be insane, then SHE's the one whose father gave her a Spanish Doll. P. mentions hiding from things as a child in one letter. Daisy does that.

You know... I need to find the page number, but there's one time that Zampano refers to himself as Tom. Did anyone catch that? It must have been a typo... but what if the house doesn't really kill someone when they fall? What if Tom ended up somewhere far away and didn't go back to Will or his family because the house had made him blind... I mean, I know it sounds insane, but Zampano's journal entries just sound so much like Tom's writing. AND the burnt holes in some of the pages... not a cigarette.. but a joint! Also, the last journal entry says the last words: "I miss you" and something like "so many sumthings were lost long ago when I lost you."
Then, if P. is Daisy and Zampano is Tom that would explain why the book drives Johnny so looney. He feels so related to all of this, because he is!

Anyway, the "you" that Zampano talks about could also easily be Johnny if Zampano is P.

Man, do I love this stuff!!!!

[chris_adams]

I don't know about the Pelafina being the author thing..If her obituary is accurate(which it might not be) then she died in the late 80s and Johnny often refers to things that were around in the late 90's...but hey I could be wrong...

I like to think that we're all like Holloway in that we take so many shots in the dark and pray that we hit something.

-CA01

[alilee]

maybe (hopefully) one of you can inspire me... i just started the book today. i read a page of chapter one and already i'm bored out of my mind! zampano's analysis is killing me!!! please tell me that the whole book does not drone on like this. here's to hoping i make it to all of the awesome stuff you guys are talking about.... please help
images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[heartbreak]

Good Eve to all,

I first started reading HOL about a year ago, but I only got about half way through. What was the problem you ask....well, to tell the truth I got lost inside the book, couldn't tell where I was going, which direction up was, and so on and so forth. But it wasn't just that I couldn't figure out where I was at anymore inside the book, I also had a complete mental breakdown. I mean How could a book be bigger on the inside than it was on the outside? But it is, and that's what makes it so extroirdinar.

About two weeks ago I picked up Poe's Haunted and started re-reading HOL, it was as injoyable as the first time, with one slight differance. The first time I read it I plunged in at fool force....this time though I turned every page like I was looking over shoulder. I quess I was waiting to see if I was going to lose it again, but I didn't and I reached the back cover.

I won't say I finished it, because just by reading your posts I see that I have missed a few things. So, I am going in a third time.

I find your disscussion about P. very interesting. She is obviously very intelligent, considering the double encryption she uses in her letter on page 620. But what the second encrypted message means I haven't been able to figure out yet.

Really glad I found this place,
Oak

P.S. Just a little something unrelated to HOL, or maybe it is. When I was going through my mental breakdown I looked up reality in Webster's dictionary, and this is what I discovered:
Reality: something that exists.
Exist: to be real.
Real: to have reality.
So what is reality? I believe it is only what we imagine it to be.

[persephoniekali]

did anyone notice that tom and dasey from the great gatsby, i'm sure theres nothing much similar, but i just realized that the other day and thought it was kinda odd..

[Inanna]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oak:
[I also had a complete mental breakdown

[Inanna]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oak:
[I also had a complete mental breakdown

This interested me because after I finished the book I had some mild depression for a couple of days. Maybe I was just sad it was over, but I was wondering if anyone else experience anything similar.

Sorry for posting that twice 'twas an accident.

Irene images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Kelley]

I think one of the many amazing things about this book is that it throws so much at you and gives you a sense of your own mortality. There are so many realizations and connections to our own lives that we feel like we are the characters, and in sensing their feelings we get pulled into the own sense of derpression that Johnny feels and the lost innocence that Daisy implies and the sane madness of Pelfina... and I could go on and on, which is to say... yes I relate.

Also I looked back on the letter and if you look at the April 5, 1986 letter it says

"-re. zealous accommodations, medical perscriptions, & needless other wonders, however obvious - debilitating in deed ; you ought understand - letting occur such evil?"

Which doesn't make sense unless you decode it(by taking the first letter of each word)to say ...

- re. "Zampano Who did you lose?"

Just thought I would share.

[MicheleVR5]

OK, I had an Angry PsYcHo ask MZD a couple questions in Toronto yesterday.

Toe fetish? No. Mark was not given any sort of context for this question.

Mark reading this board? He's lurking. So maybe he does know what was meant by the question.

[JanineMarie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paradoxxx:
you know i was reading this book and it was twisted in its own right--slightly disturbing at times--ingenious in and of itself--but its nothing so extraordinary as everyone makes it appear to be. i thought the book was great, personally, but it was overambitious in many features. did anyone really read that whole discussion on echoes? did anyone care to see those pages of names? my humble opinion of course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


DITTO - and I did read the entire "Echoe" thing. I feel I may have missed something after all I have heard about this book. It left me feeling like...."Humm...Whatever. But maybe....? Well...no - no I shouldn't pick it up again. Oh hell, but what if I did miss something?"


images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[Sintina]

badahbaba: I totally agree with you. There were so many parts about so many of the characters that just reached out to me and made me feel all different types of emotions.

Zampano, who did you lose??!!?? images/smiles/icon_eek.gif
Freaky!

Mark's reading this board? Neat! **waves to Mark** **hands Mark a slice of pizza**
images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Ardis_21]

This is in response to Sintina's comments about the relationship between Daisy, Karen, and Pelafina.
What if all three are the same person (symbolically)? Karen is trapped inside her problems, and she can do no real good to Daisy that way. Maybe history is repeating itself. Daisy represents the youthful aspect, getting into the problems of life, but not quite in them. Karen is the part that dealt with them as a child, but she still has hope, although she does things (maybe acting out?) that could destroy it all. Pelafina is the aged woman who can no longer take it. It's all speculation, as I don't have all of the facts about Poe's and Mark's early years, but the "trine" is found throughout religious sects. Wicca has the triple goddess (maiden, mother, crone). Christianity has the father, son, and the holy spirit. Alll represent a young, middle-aged, and older aspect of the same unified being. Is that same symbolism used here?

[bmkazar]

I just started the book yesterday AFTER discovering POE's album. I didn't know how to take it at first and thought that I should be reading it as a farce. I'm slowing figuring out that it is,of course, not. I'll keep you posted.

Hello, all! images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[drone]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
What if all three (Daisy, Karen, P.) are the same person symbolically)? ...the "trine" is found throughout religious sects.
I thought something similar actually, but about Johnny, Navidson and Zampano. Personally I'd say that Thumper would fit with Karen & P. better than Daisy, but I didn't notice Daisy much on the first read through.

[jennifer may]

Hey, don't mind me.
I'm just jumpin' on in....

Sintina: I think I caught that bit where Zampano refers to himself as Tom.
It looks like an intended typo, if you know what I mean - "me" instead of "him".
I'll check out the page ref....

[jennifer may]

Back again!

See page 320:

"Regrettably, Tom fails to stop at a sip.......He might have spent all night drinking had exhaustion not caught up with me."

[Kate]

Hello, this is my first post here. I just finished HOL for the first time about a month ago. Here are some of my thoughts, at one point I had a feeling that perhaps Zampano was somehow Johnny's father. I know this is contrary to many other ideas since Zampano is now debatably a character created by P. or Johnny or whoever. However, if Zampano did really exist, what was up with those inch finger gouges seen in the floor by Zampano's body?? I liked the theory (sorry, I forget who posted about this) that Zampano was in fact Tom, writing about his experiences. I like this personally because I think the account is so much more effective if the reader is led to believe that the events in the Navidson Record DID happen rather then a reader reading a fictional account within fiction. I think it all goes back to the Blair Witch (sorry if this is a cheap and easy comparison). Blair Witch was marketed long before the movie was released and I remember visiting the web site and getting the feeling that this actually did happen.

Anyway, sorry for making this post so long. I read in an interview with Mark and he said how House of Leaves will never be made into a film. I agree with this but I often found myself casting the characters. Anyway else? Thoughts. Inspired by his riviting performance in REquiem for a Dream, I thought Jared Leto would make a good Johnny and maybe Christian Bale as Lude?

kate

PS- Any Philadelphians on this list? Email me if so!!

[Eyepeice]

--

[shadows]

yeah, with the last thing in Zampanos journal entries, where he says " I miss you" maybe thats what P. was talking about in the secret message where she says " My dear Zampano, who did you lose?" So maybe Zampano is tom? Or maybe P. somehow found Zampanos journal, but didn't know him personally? Or maybe she does know him personally and thats what she reffering to when she says that line!?

[Dana]

*bump*

[DanSRose]

*bump* again

This is lost first thread. Ooooh

Look at all the side chatter with all the useful things as well. Neat how that used to happen also. It was also the first thread.

On this first thread, they didn't talk about house being blue, but the My Dear Zampano, Who Did You Lose? code, Minos and minotauir mythology, and Pelafina being the writer. It even has criticism about how Pelafina, who died in the 80s, commenting on 1990s technology.

[Ellacia]

I'm sure fatty's going to have a field day here.....I would almost feel bad for this new batch of newbies, except that it's really kinda fun to sit back and watch him work.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellacia:
I'm sure fatty's going to have a field day here.....I would almost feel bad for this new batch of newbies, except that it's really kinda fun to sit back and watch him work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the dates on this thread.
images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DanSRose]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellacia:
I'm sure fatty's going to have a field day here.....I would almost feel bad for this new batch of newbies, except that it's really kinda fun to sit back and watch him work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duhhhh. Duh. Duh duh gleghhh. Duh?

You didn't look at any of the dates nor did you read mine (I'm hurt). I said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
This is the lost first thread. Ooooh.

Emphasis on FIRST!!!

[ July 27, 2003: Message edited by: DanSRose ]

[malakite]

ellacia: you continue to impress me. but not in a good way. clearly you read the first couple posts here,. and did not look at the dates. using this extremely limited information, you made(yet another) attack on an established member, whom you have done little but attack since you arrived, and he made a rather gentle joke at your expense(and his own, i might add).

as for the thread: cool. i have oft wondered what the first thread might be. and you know what? i had not previously known about the pelafina-mentioning-90's-technology-when-she-died-in-the-80's thing. see how much even i can learn when looking at old threads?

[ninziestar]

images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

I don't think I understand the P./Zampano relationship with one another. Will someone explain it to me?

[Ellacia]

what can i say, you got me again.

[DanSRose]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellacia:
"My cats breath smells like catfood." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go Ralph Wiggum!

[malakite]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ninziestar:
images/smiles/icon_cool.gif

I don't think I understand the P./Zampano relationship with one another. Will someone explain it to me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no. why? because none of us actually know what the rlationship is. personally, i think zampano is in fact donnie, but, after his friend died in a truck accident, donnie took his identity, and stole away to california, to his friends old apartment and found the trunk full of writings. donnie then continued work on his friends book.

or something like that.

[Andrea1204]

Well aside from P/Zampano's confusing relationship, my question is, was anyone else like, totally obsessed with Johnny Truant? I totally fell in love with him. I find very sexy when an attractive guy is a big druggee but is also introvertive and well-written.

Question: Where exactly IS ash-tree lane supposed to be anyway? And I remember somewhere in the book Johnny saying that none of Z's references or footnotes were even real books, has this ever been proven true? Excuse me if this has been posted and answered before but I'm hungry.

[malakite]

well, it hat been asked before, but thats alright, because you are asking in a previously established thread, which is exactly what people should do, and what most people do do, except idiots.

[Ellacia]

idiots are stoopid.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellacia:
"Dude, don't fuck her so hard, my dick's in her mouth!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm surprised you haven't thrown your hilarious link around the board again, under your new "disguise".

[Ellacia]

i know you're not usually wrong fatty, but i'm definitely not crass. although he seems like the type of guy you'd bring to a party. you know what a party is, right? were a bunch of ACTUAL people get together and interact with one another. Its sort of like what you do all day online, but with, like, you know, people who leave their homes and stuff.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ellacia:
i know you're not usually wrong fatty, but i'm definitely not crass. although he seems like the type of guy you'd bring to a party. you know what a party is, right? were a bunch of ACTUAL people get together and interact with one another. Its sort of like what you do all day online, but with, like, you know, people who leave their homes and stuff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To coin a legal expression "I rest my case."

So do I get a Texas law degree now too??? images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ellacia]

I already told you, I hate Texas--been there once, not going back. Everything about Texas is horrible horrible horrible. And I told you also that my imaginary degree is from the College of Eastern Erda. But you can have yours from Texas if you really want it.

[DanSRose]

This new bickering battle is one of the few things that is keeping new depressive funk at bay. I need to keep like that:

Hey Fatwoul! Ellacia said you screw your mum.
Hey Ellacia! Fatwoul said you screw your dad.


(I hereby apologize to nikhsub11, MichelleVR5, and all the original posters of this thread. I am ashamed of my actions.)

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: DanSRose ]

[Ellacia]

Dude, everyone's screwed my mum. Hell, being from Kentucky as I am, I've probably also screwed my mum. My dad though, he's one hot piece of ass, lemme tell you what.

[Andrea1204]

Why don't you all stop screwing each other's parents and answer my aforementioned questions.

Thanks.

BTW: My imaginary degree is from the Uninversity of STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN!

[silver474]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrea1204:
Why don't you all stop screwing each other's parents and answer my aforementioned questions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Geez, if I had a nickel for every time I've said that...

Oh nevermind. images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[DanSRose]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrea1204:
Question: Where exactly IS ash-tree lane supposed to be anyway? And I remember somewhere in the book Johnny saying that none of Z's references or footnotes were even real books, has this ever been proven true? Excuse me if this has been posted and answered before but I'm hungry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found Johnny amazingly cool, mostly because of his tragic nature. My interest in him is if he is the author of the Pelican Poems and why they were written. Those are amazing.

The House at the end of Ash Tree Lane is in Jamestown, VA. That's what tied in those Roanoke stories and the one with the stairs in the woods (the story with tall S). What got me with that one was if JT is supposed to be extremely intelligent, shouldn't he know that the English of the 17th century was different than modern English? hmm...
During Johnny's psychotic travels, he did not find the House or any place or anyone mentioned in the book or knowing the Navidsons. I liked the Camille Paglia postcard-reply.

[malakite]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanSRose:


I found Johnny amazingly cool, mostly because of his tragic nature. My interest in him is if he is the author of the Pelican Poems and why they were written. Those are amazing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i still maintain that ll evidence points to johnny being the author.

but, it draws some other things into question, which support, though perhaps not in exactly the same form, my idea of donnie being either author or coauthor of 'the navidson record' portion of HoL.

how you say? well ill tell you. tomorrow. cause it is 11:58 pm, and i need sleep! so, i bid you good night, and illl explain away any questions you may have about any part of the book, but tomorrow.

egad, it is tomorrow. ok. i shall answer all questions later today. like, 12 hours later.

[frstmnkynspc]

I'm not too keen on all this there-is-only-one-author-of-the-book-and-the-rest-are-imaginary-characters business unless one assumes MZD is the only author of the book. It reminds me of a short story (whose author, title, and various plot points elude me at this time) that I came across during my research into Albert Einstein's Theories of Relativity.

It think it went something like this...

A woman goes to a bar where she meets a man. He turns out to be a time-traveler. She leaves with him and gets knocked up in a one night stand. Nine months later, she has the child. As it turns out the woman was a hermaphrodite, and due to compications of the birth has to have the female bits and peices removed, becoming a man. He (formally she) then travels back in time to drop the child off somewhere in the past to be raised by nuns/cannibals/monkeys/wolves/whatever and returns back to the bar in the future. There, he meets a young woman and has her for the night. Many years later, our hero travels back in time as an old man and becomes the bartender at a bar where two young people meet for the first time and go off to do naughty things with one another...

I believe it turned out to be slightly more complicated than that, but it remains that all the characters mentioned, the woman, the man, the child, and the old bartender, all turn out to be the same person.

Shit, I forgot where I was going with this...

Well, seeing as my brain has just shifted from fourth gear to first at 80 mph, I'll just finish with that even though...

Ahh, fuck it...

*Hums "Valley of the Dolls" theme*

[ThomasJ]

<font face="Arial">...but hermaphrodites aren't able to reproduce...

[malakite]

yeah, well, time travel doesn't exist either.

[Andrea1204]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malakite:
yeah, well, time travel doesn't exist either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe it does. Sometimes I like to think that I was about to die a horibble death and then begged God to let me live and he said, "OK, well I'll send you back in time but you will have to lead a $hitty life from here on in and you will have no recollection of your almost-death." And so here I am.
It sure explains the $hitty from here on in part.

I believe I've babbled incessantly for 46 seconds.

[Themnoria]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrea1204:


I believe I've babbled incessantly for 46 seconds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No comment

[bloo]

*very, very quietly* johnny truant doesn't exist. did no one else pick upon that?

*sighs*

[frstmnkynspc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bloo:
*very, very quietly* johnny truant doesn't exist. did no one else pick upon that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


None of them exist!

Personally, I'm starting to believe everythig in HoL is symbolic, even, especially, the characters.

I'm off to use the Function, the wonderful Function of Search...

[malakite]

neither does karen, tom, navy, holloway, reston, wax, jed, zampano, lude, flaze, thumper, johnnie, the boss, kyrie, gdansk man, tatiana, amber, the russian capatin, punching bag or tex.

MZD wrote the whole thing, man.

[frstmnkynspc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malakite:
yeah, well, time travel doesn't exist either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the likes of Goedel and, today, Hawking would beg to differ. Einstein's Theories left at least the possibility open. However, Goedel also showed that mathematics just doesn't add up.

Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Damn...

[bloo]

well...yes...MZD wrote the whole thing. but...there's more to it than that. it's not mere symbolism. there IS a message and a meaning...but i'll be damned if i can get my mind around it all.

oh...and Pelafina...she's real. tell me i'm wrong.

[malakite]

you're wrong. MZD wrote the whole thing. all of it. all the characters are figments of the authors imagination. it even says so, right in the front of the book.

as for time travel: yes, the theory's support it, but most of the methods devised have involved superstring loops, contained black holes, , spaceships the size of jupiter and a cup of really hot tea.

[frstmnkynspc]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bloo:
well...yes...MZD wrote the whole thing. but...there's more to it than that. it's not mere symbolism. there IS a message and a meaning...but i'll be damned if i can get my mind around it all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your getting closer. It's as he (MZD) said through JT, it's not whether it's real or not that's important, but its consequences. Arguing about who wrote HoL is really irrelavent. There are clues that point to many. But you can never be quite sure because of the unreliability of Johnny Truant. He went back and augmented parts of Zampano's work and he withheld information in certain documents (i.e. his father's last name). Who's to say he didn't change part's of his mother's letters such as the "My dear Zampano, who did you lose?" Everything corrolates and with good reason. Someone in another thread pointed out that the Zampano's house could be symbolic of the mind of P. To me this makes perfect sense. But how would Zampano know of P's mind? Once again, that's not important. Take the two appearences of HoL in the book (the band in Flagstaff and Exploration 5). They are both second editions (despite that the band's said first edition, it still had the introduction). There is no way those books would have contained the introduction in the "first edition". Come to think of it, I read somewhere else on another thread, that Zampano had a working title for Chapter XXI, a chapter he had no hand in writing.

Haven't gotten any real sleep in a couple of days. My mind is starting to wander, darting back and forth between unrelated points. The point is if you try to pry too deep into the book, it starts to fall apart completely. Remember, the labryith is full of false doors designed to confuse its inhabinant into thinking he has found a way out.