Minotaur

[Lost_In_Crete]

Let's open this up to conversation... curious to hear what others have to say, think it could be interesting...

[PaulHewson]

First, a warning: I'm over-tired and over-jazzed from seeing Mark and Poe on Conan. I've put some thought into the Minotaur topic and me, fatigue, caffiene (God bless it) and nicotine (God damn it) have come up with some answers.

The fact that the word Minotaur was "edited" from the text is of tantamount importence. It's as if Zampano used it initially and then decided it was inappropriate. The fact of the matter is that placing a Minotaur, wether metaphorically or physically, into Navidson's house would be incongruous (that may or may not be a word) with the very nature of the house. The house shifts and changes based on who enters it, so by placing a tangible creature in the house violates the very nature of the house.

Next, I'm gonna reference page 110 (the footnote that looks like a key) , "...King Minos did not build the labyrinth to imprison a monster but to conceal a deformed child his child". Going with this, it would seem that the "Minotaur" of the house would be the skeleton in everyone's closet. That one little secret you wish no one else knew. Again, by placing a tangible metaphor to it makes it static and not fit for the mutable house. There could be more here, but I can barely see straight. Anyone? Anyone?

Like him (yeah!) or not (boo) as an author, Mark is above cliches. I think he must have realized early on that people would associate his house to the Daedelus legend. Also, throwing the symbol of a Minotaur in with a maze-like setting is like putting frickin' Marlboro Miles next to me. They just go together. Always have, always will. Mark, then, was faced with the challenge of working around an obvious symbol. By utilizing (and "eliminating") the symbol of the Minotaur, Mark addressed the issue of the Minotaur, and cut would-be analysists off at the pass. Yeah, I knowthat's a cliche. I never said I was above 'em.

I think I've run out of steam for now. If I think of anything else, I'll be sure to add it.

-P

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: PaulHewson ]

[blueeyeddevil]

[some spoiling here]

the manuscript that Zampanò had been writing was not a solid work. It was a collection of thoughts and fears that only after the passing of time started to resemble a solid work.

but he died before he finished.

there is much evidence that shows he did not know how to proceed with the story:

pages 17-18 imply that the future holds a grim fate for his family:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>...within a year these pieces were all Navidson had left--Karen and the children a mere blur racing down the staircase...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and on page 552 a photographed card shows
another fate:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>XXXXXXXXXXXXXX:
Perhaps I will alter the whole thing. Kill both children. Murder is a better word. Chad screambling to escape, almost making it to the front door where Karen waits, until a corner in the foyer suddenly leaps forward and hews the boy in half. At the same time Navidson, by the kitchen, reaches for Daisy, only to arrive a fraction of a second too late, his fingers finding air, his eyes scratching after Daisy as she falls to her death. Let both parents experience that. Let their narcissism find a new object to wither by. Douse them in infanticide. Drown them in blood.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

however, the "final cut" has the family survive, although not in perfect condition.

it is clear to me that Zampanò was unsure of many of the aspects of his manuscript.

would his monster be a physical creature that roams the labrynth (i.e. minotaur) or will it be mental and emotional struggle with emptiness?

i think all passages about the minotaur are struck because of a decision that the monster is not to be physical.

one related thought of interest:

it may not have been Zampanò who struck the minotaur, but the unstable and frightened Johnny...

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: the.blueeyed.devil ]

[verismo]

Or, Was old man Z. Schitzo, Johnny was his alter-ego that he was trying to strike out, subconsciously[sic?] i.e. the thing that is always chasing Johnny.

[Leaves and Trees]

Delial....?

(Navidson tells us it's her that's "chasing" him in the house-- a memory became a monster)

[albuhtross]

My interpretation of the striking of the Minotaur lines is as follows:

HOL is supposed to be a maze that you enter and never escape from. It consumes you. Zampano, Johnny, the cycle continues with the guys in the band adding notes to their copy. The Minotaur, however, was seen as too big a clue by the author, and new "readers" of the book might get the clue and be warned into stopping their journey. It was therefore struck out so that readers would not realize their fate until they were already lost in the maze that is....HOL

Would love to hear other's thoughts on this...I just finished HOL and joined this site....have many theories and not sure how many of them others have or if I am reading way too much into parts of the book...BTW, Mark, if you ever read these posts, allow me to add my kudos to you on a remarkable (no pun intended) piece of work.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: albuhtross ]

[drone]

I haven't thought about why the minotaur was crossed out, but surely (one of) the main point(s) of the book is that the minotaur isn't going to hunt you down & kill you. It's not a conventional monster as such, because it is ultimately a tragic creature. What is more heart-wrenching than a malformed (bull-headed, horribly scarred, broken-toothed, blind, mad, whatever) boy, abandoned and crying for his parents? The reason we avoid it is not because it is a threat but because it fills us with overwhelming sorrow, and our own sorrow will tear us apart. Well, that's the theory at least. I don't think the minotaur's very clichéd, the way Mark handles it.

[ManiKatt]

The Minotaur, I'm starting to believe that each of the characters in this book are set up symbolically like mythological characters and represented by certain elements. For example, I think that Zampono's association to cats is through his symbol, the lion. As a brute who could never love and left Pelfina alone after or before the death of her child Johhny. This has a lot to do with a lot of what I've been writing about in other areas.
But back to the Minotaur. I think thatJohhny is represented as the minotaur, the deformed child, abandoned and Zampono is the father of this deformed child. Because of Zampono's guilt he is plagued by the Minotaur. This is why he crosses it out. Remember how the words are struck through so that they can be read? Like bars in a prison where you can see on the other side but neither party can make contact? I think this is symbolic of the Minos story where the King (lion?Zampono?) Locks away his son forever in the Labrynth. Furthermore, Johhny becomes trapped in this labrynth of his father's (Zampono) design, "The Navidson Record" is the labrynth. Johhny is haunted by this imprisonment. He is the only character to envision himself as the narrator that I can find. There is more to work out here. Does anyone find evidence to support this?

[michaelgrandner]

I have another take on the struck minotaur passages.

I believe that the question of why the passages were struck is not an issue of "is the minotaur something real or is it a metaphor?" but rather "why does Zampano not want to talk about the minotaur?"

I think that "Mr. Monster" is real, despite the wishy-washy descriptions in the book (so wishy washy, in fact, that its existence is even up for debate). I think that the minotaur is VERY real, although not the Cretan sort.

The two passages that I think convince me most are the "shadowy fingers" Holloway scene and the "scratches on the floor at Z's."

But I do think the Minotaur, like the wall samples, is simply beyond our world, and our attempts to describe it, like the geologist's attempts to describe the walls, will not work -- at least with any true accuracy.

I think that Zampano was well aware of the minotaur but decided to strike the entire discourse as an act of denial, to somehow will the thing out of existence by not giving it the benefit of discourse. Or perhaps it was meant as a protection from others -- if no one knew about the minotaur, they might remain safe.

What do you think?

[drone]

[Just a quickie, suddenly struck me]
Another thought about the struck passages: in these footnotes, Zampano states that the Minotaur is a trope for repression. Having explained & argued this point, he then strikes out the theory (either to prevent a stranger or himself from reading it). In other words, he consciously represses the information. Oh the irony. Zampano (or maybe Johnny) also colours the entire passages red, the colour of the Minotaur (Minotaur appears in red even when it's not in a struck passage - p337), ie the colour of repression.

[Jessie]

House Of Leaves has been such a gift in terms of its astounding ability to get a person to think in a way that would ordinarily be considered left of center.
Ever since I discovered it and devoured it my reading habits have changed...DRASTICALLY

A recent discovery is the the book The Minotaur Takes A Cigarette Break by Steven Sherrill.
I found a summary and a readers guide questionaire which I thought would offer an interesting perspective to the minotaur discussions on this board.

The Minotaur Takes a Cigarette Break

"Five thousand years out of the Labyrinth that held him captive, and as many years beyond the dubious bargain that set him free, the Minotaur finds himself struggling to negotiate the American South with the body of a man and the head of a bull.

The Minotaur tries to balance the past, the present, and a looming future from behind the cooks' line at Grub's Rib, where his coworkers know both his skill with a chef's knife and the sometimes dangerous nature of his horns. At Lucky-U Mobile Estates, the Minotaur lives in a boat-shaped trailer and shares with his neighbors an appreciation for a quiet lifestyle and a respect for auto repairs.

Over the duration of his life, the Minotaur has roamed the earth and seen much, yet he has reaped little wisdom to help him navigate the complex geography of human relationships. Inarticulate, socially inept, tolerated at best by modern folk, he has been reduced from a monster with an appetite for human flesh to a broken creature with very human needs.

During the two weeks covered by the novel, the delicate balance tips, and the Minotaur finds his life dissolving into chaos while he simultaneously awakens to the possibility of love.

Among the characters peopling the Minotaur's world are Kelly, whose own debilitating flaw allows her affinity for the Minotaur; Sweeny, the rough-hewn but kindly proprietor of the mobile-home park; and Buddy, Sweeny's unforgettable, unlucky, randy bulldog.

The Minotaur Takes a Cigarette Break is an effortless blend of the mundane and the mythic, a unique world in which kitchen work becomes high drama and meetings between legendary creatures almost pass notice. But strangest of all in Steven Sherrill's debut novel, everything seems to make perfect sense."

Questions to Consider

1. From what point of view is the story delivered? Is it constant? Are there moments or passages that occur outside the ongoing narrative.

2. How does the Minotaur resolve the paradoxical work that he now finds himself doing?

3. What roles do Grub and his family play in the book and in the Minotaur's life?

4. How do the dream sequences/chapters function?

5. In your opinion, what is the reason for placing the Minotaur in the twentieth-century American South? How does this setting resemble and/or differ from the Minotaur's original home of Crete?

6. Throughout the book, in the Minotaur's journey, he has several encounters with creatures who share his mythic past. Describe these meetings and explain their significance in the context of the story.

7. The entire book takes place in a span of less than three weeks in the Minotaur's never-ending life. What are some possible reasons for this? How does time function throughout the book?

8. Are there themes and/or images you can identify as recurring throughout the book?

9. How do the Minotaur's assorted neighbors and his life at Lucky-U Mobile Estates reflect the themes and issues in the book?

10. What, both literally and mythically, does the corn-dog trailer represent to the Minotaur?

11. How can you explain the Minotaur's appreciation of and understanding for things mechanical?

12. What are the various moments and levels of humor at work in the book?

13. The Minotaur seems to display his most human emotions in his reactions to Kelly. What is it about Kelly that evokes his feelings of compassion and pathos?

14. What of the Labyrinth that was created for the Minotaur in myth? Does its existence suggest anything about the Minotaur's future?

[silver474]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michaelgrandner:
IThe two passages that I think convince me most are the "shadowy fingers" Holloway scene and the "scratches on the floor at Z's." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. It seems as if, as Z tumbles to an ostensibly frightening death, he chooses to eradicate any mention of the minotaur, not because he changed his mind, but because it is all too real. Perhaps that is what is haunting him and killing all his cats.
*s

[Lillie]

bumpity bump bump

[zerolous]

I've mentioned this before, but it is very apropo. I believe that the so called strike through is actualy a visual key. It represents a thread, a lenght of string, such like the one...shit, was id deadalous or theseus who used the thread to escape. anyway, my point is that the strike through is meant to lead us somewhere. an important clue.

Think about it, its important enough to get its own version of HOL, so its as equally important as house being in blue.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zerolous:
...I believe that the so called strike through is actualy a visual key. It represents a thread, a lenght of string...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I have a red copy of my own, I agree entirely. Before I had seen it (and I have mentioned this before), I assumed that the strike-through was also red. I was very surprised to find it was black. This must have been an even greater printing challenge. Anyway, once I saw it I could instantly see the thread thing.

Could this black thread be binding the words together? Also, with reference to the struck text on page 336, does anyone else think the shape resembles a torso? If so, what are the implications - the torso of the minotaur is the only part that is human - he has the head and legs of a bull, right?

Perhaps a message about the person behind the monster...

[zerolous]

I could see it as a torso, sure.


wow, thats really all I have right now.

[verismo]

What about the red lines, in the red version, that are not struck? I do remember those don't I? images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[verismo]

OK, I'm going crazy. Now, in a paperback red-letter ed, I found a struck passage that is not red! Pg. 518. But I'm almost sure that in my Hardcover Red-letter there is a red line that isn't struck. Help.

[ianthebruce]

OK, I admit that this one is out there even for me. If the minotaur is literally real, and it is him that kills Zampano, couldn't the minotaur himself have edited Z's manuscript and deleted himself? Whoa.

[zerolous]

I don't think thats way out there, I had that same thought today...no shit.

I was reading and old thread about the scratch marks on the floor in Z's place and how he had died of natural causes. But what if the three claw marks were the minataur, he shows up, Z drops dead from the sight, the minataur then edits himself out of the manuscript.

[billypilgrim]

You just gave me the funniest mental image of this slavering beast bursting into z's apartment, snarling and slobbering all over the floor, z drops dead, and the beast pulls out a pair of bifocals and starts editing.

Thank you.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Howard W. Campbell, jr.:
You just gave me the funniest mental image of this slavering beast bursting into z's apartment, snarling and slobbering all over the floor, z drops dead, and the beast pulls out a pair of bifocals and starts editing.

Thank you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Maybe he used a writing tool for both purposes, afterall, the pen is mightier than the sword!

There I go cracking myself up again.

Waaaay too much youth time spent watching Indiana Jones & The Last Crusade...

[ianthebruce]

Howard your a funny bastard. I'm glad we're all enjoying ourselves. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[bad_mitten]

the black struck passage says "what I'm remembering now." i'm remember a thread discussing this phrase. i (or someone) will have to search for it.

the minotaur editing himself out...but why?? why would he care?

[zerolous]

maybe he is self conscious, maybe he doesn't want people to know he exists.

What if he isn't the deformed boy, but a real monster, a devil. Isn't the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to make people think he didn't exist.

As an aside, I would have loved to be at that board meeting when the devil rolled that idea out to his lesser minions.

[bad_mitten]

for zerolous: it was theseus that used the thread to escape the labyrinth (p. 119)

zerolous says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
the strike through is meant to lead us somewhere

p. 114:

They [labyrinths] may be perceived as a path (a linear but circuitous passage to a goal) or as a pattern (a complete symmetrical design).

so, the labyrinth is supposed to lead us, in a roundabout way, to some final goal. and it is also to be some sort of symmetrical pattern. does anyone see a pattern in footnote 123? (pp. 110-111) i know it's split over 2 pages, but if they are combined. it looks like it must represent SOME shape, but i can't discern it. best i can come up with is a knife.

[bad_mitten]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You alone must find the way. No one else can help you. Every way is different.

struck passage, p. 115

also note, that this struck passage ends with an X -- unable to proceed.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: bad_mitten ]

[silver474]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bad_mitten:
the black struck passage says "what I'm remembering now."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's not really black, it's supposed to be purple (http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000430).

[zerolous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bad_mitten:
for zerolous: it was theseus that used the thread to escape the labyrinth (p. 119)

They [labyrinths] may be perceived as a path (a linear but circuitous passage to a goal) or as a pattern (a complete symmetrical design). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so he used the thread to escape after slaying the minataur, and in the book the thread, is used to strike the minataur away, thus slaying and (hopefully) escaping.

Also, this harks back to that recent debate about maze/labyrinth, and why, if there is a difference, would MZD use both terms. From what I have learned, labyrinths are sometimes used as a healing for the mind. Away to atune yourself. I would need to go look at the different references, but perhaps it was meant to be a labyrinth, a healing process, but it was instead "viewed" as a maze, and therefore characters became lost and killed because of how they perceived it.

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: zerolous ]

[bad_mitten]

But what is the "final goal" that the labyrinth is to lead us to? Following the thread wouldnt necessarily slay the minotaur -- we would have to do that ourselves. Perhaps if we can follow the thread out of the labyrinth, the Minotaur would simply slowly starve and rot away -- slowly fade from our lives as we recover from the ordeal of finding our way out of labyrinth.

But the quote on p. 115 hints to me that there IS no way out -- i didnt say it earlier, but the passage goes on to say that if you attempt to find your way out, you will perish. then the x saying cannot proceed. maybe it's impossible to get out, and we ourselves will slowly starve and rot away, rather than the minotaur doing it.

[LSama]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zerolous:
[QB]I've mentioned this before, but it is very apropo. I believe that the so called strike through is actualy a visual key. It represents a thread, a lenght of string, such like the one...shit, was id deadalous or theseus who used the thread to escape. anyway, my point is that the strike through is meant to lead us somewhere. an important clue.[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or maybe..just maybe(And trust me, I'm REALLY going out on a limb here), but have you ever heard the saying that, to remember something, you tie a string around your finger?

Maybe the "Striked out Minotuars" aren't being struck out at all. Maybe they're being "stringed". Maybe he's not trying to forget them at all, but remember them.

[ThomasJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LSama:
Maybe the "Striked out Minotuars" aren't being struck out at all. Maybe they're being "stringed". Maybe he's not trying to forget them at all, but remember them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<font face="Arial">Maybe I've posted this before, but who really knows...

I tend to go with the most obvious of the reasons for the passages being striken. I believe that Zampanò tried to eradicate the passages to forget them, because, possibly, the <strike><font color="red">Minotaur</font color></strike> parts seemed far too real for him to accept.

I think that Zampanò had a son that he metaphorically "locked away" from himself. I think it's likely that he's trying to erase the pain of his past by crossing out all reference to the myth and the child that is somehow "deformed"¹ to him, or another person. Whether that child is Truant, or someone else, is debatable (as are most things in the book).

I think it's important to remember that Truant identifies himself with the <font color="red"><strike>Minotaur</strike></font color> and Zampanò relates closest to <font color="red"><strike>Minos</strike></font color>. This kind of leaves Pelafina hanging around this myth without a role, though. Any ideas?

_____________________________________________
¹ Also consider that this "deformity" may not be physical, or even present since birth. Recall the scars on Truant's arms, or perhaps even Pelafina's madness.

.

[ November 27, 2002: Message edited by: ThomasJ ]

[Spire]

What, you don't think that Pelafina fits in as the eternally shamed and disgraced locked away unfit mother?
Or maybe she has been locked away like the Minotaur, forever caught in a labyrinth of her own making, forever without her family.
Or maybe she's like Minos, forever without a son and at the same time sorry for trying to kill him or cause him to disappear.
Just a thought or two.

[ThomasJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SPire:
What, you don't think that Pelafina fits in as the eternally shamed and disgraced locked away unfit mother?
Or maybe she has been locked away like the Minotaur, forever caught in a labyrinth of her own making, forever without her family.
Or maybe she's like Minos, forever without a son and at the same time sorry for trying to kill him or cause him to disappear.
Just a thought or two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<font face="Arial">I don't recall the Queen being in the myth much after the birth of the <font color="red"><strike>Minotaur</strike></font color>, but my memory is weak. This is why I did not equate her with the "unfit mother" role. Am I forgetting a part of the myth, perhaps?

I also see the other two connections, as you have stated.

[AlonsoQuesada]

(i know i need to improve my english, nevertheless...)
did someone notice that in her last letter (2 days before dying), Pelafina wrote, thinking she was living Whalestoe Hospital the next day, something about Sybille de Cumes ?
Cumes was a little in Italy where Deadalus went after escaping to Minos... and Sybille was a seer.
Does this mean that Pelafina is Deadalus ?
I won't answer "Yes" right now, but i guess something could be found following this way... Don't you ?

[Timothy Ferguson]

The Minotaur needs to be conciously removed because a blind man writing about labyrinths is so clearly based on Jean-Luis Borges that you need to break the connection for him to have versimilitude.

As a continuation of my "The house gives you what you want" theory, Zampano tries to remove the minotaur from the book, because his fixation on the minotaur is allowing his repressed fellings and ideas take form and stalk him. The minotaur is about repression, he says.

[nyx]

My own pet theory is that the relationship between Zampano and JohnnyT is one of father-son, similar to the relationship between Theseus (the king), and the minotaur (his deformed son). Zampano/Theseus strikes out mention of the minotaur because he is attempting to erase all reference to it, destroy all mention and connection to it, because he is trying to suppress the truth about the minotaur/son. JohnnyT/minotaur, on the other hand, un-strikeouts (is that a word?) the mention of the minotaur, and in doing so, reveals and reconstructs what his father attempted to suppress.

[Stencil]

Do Zampano's struck lines connect in any way with the struck lines in Navidson's letter? Perhaps those people Navidson missed were actually names of soilders Zampano was in the war with? Perhaps that's what the Minotaur was to Zampano; perhaps it was war.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: Stencil ]

[SBKelly]

I've mentioned before but it seems worth repeating that in the mythology of the Minotaur, Daedalus (who later builds the labyrinth to conceal the Minotaur) also is responsible for the 'disguise' whereby Pasiphae, Minos's wife, impregnates herself by the bull. In this context, footnote 123 has another layer of bad conscience: the labyrinth builder tries to conceal their complicity with the creation of the monster. Daedalus' son Icarus - like Johnny - comes undone because he gets too high - joke.

[DrGizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S B Kelly:
- joke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it? Maybe Johhny really got too high and dropped down because Wax melted...

[Kelly J Pendergrast]

daedalus DID go to cumae, where the sybill lived, but it doesn't really follow that pelafina is a daedalus character. the sybill herself seems more similar to pelafina. despite her gift of seeing, the sybill was fairly wretched:
"I have seen with my own eyes the Sibyl hanging in a jar, and when the boys asked her "What do you want?" She answered,
"I want to die." (from Petronious' Satyricon). i translated it myself from the original greek... (or not). it's also the epigraph to eliot's the waste land.
maybe pelafina sees herself in the figure of the cumae's sybill.
?

[The Disgruntled Frenchman]

I couldn't find anywhere to put this, but it relates here well enough.
A common theory on this board is that Johnny is not real. He is a projection of Zampano, Pelafina, Karen, whoever. If the entire book was written by one person, then that person would have struck, then reincluded the minotaur passages.
This would mean that the author is drawing attention to the minotaur under the pretext of trying to hide it.

[prelinger]

also worth considering (i think) is the way the minotaur symbolizes the uncertainty we have regarding the layers of narrative, which is one of the many themes of the book. we can't be sure whether the really was a deformed child, or a monster, or if it ever existed at all. we can't be sure of what johnny (or whoever operates under the guise of johnny if you like the _____-is-pretending-to-be-someone-named-johnny theory) edited, besides the 'water' part (and he could have been lying about that too). we can't be sure if pelafina really is being raped by the attendants, or if it's another delusion. the block of red text appears on 144 that looks like a lock (kind of). maybe that's what the red key unlocks?

oh, and note how johnny only makes mention of struck passages. nothing about red...

[Reader]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drone:
[QB]
Another thought about the struck passages: in these footnotes, Zampano states that the Minotaur is a trope for repression. Having explained & argued this point, he then strikes out the theory (either to prevent a stranger or himself from reading it). In other words, he consciously represses the information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to note a couple of things here:
1. In the front collage, Zampano writes in red ink. Perhaps red is his color of choice. The reason it gets printed in red is because that's the one thing Johnny doesn't mess with and just includes it as is.
2. From "The Garden of Forking Paths" by Borges, the question is posed: When trying to get someone to guess the word "chess," what's the one word that you cannot use? Chess.

It seems to me that Zampano's goal for the NR was to in some way, recreate the myth of the minotaur. Therefore, since he's trying to get the reader to guess "minotaur," he strikes its appearance from the book.

Johnny, however, isn't trying to create this "recreation of the myth," so he can use the word, hence it not being in red.

[Jillian]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fatwoul:


Also, with reference to the struck text on page 336, does anyone else think the shape resembles a torso? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I thought it resembled a bomb, as in the A-bomb so often mentioned in HoL.

And the other big Minotaur section, pp.110-111: when you put the struck passages together as one image (the p.111 part underneath the 110 part) it makes the shape of a KEY, perhaps the "Key" to the book?

[Jillian]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Howard W. Campbell, jr.:
You just gave me the funniest mental image of this slavering beast bursting into z's apartment, snarling and slobbering all over the floor, z drops dead, and the beast pulls out a pair of bifocals and starts editing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While wearing a tweed jacket with leather patches on the elbows and smoking a pipe...classic! images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[04cbi]

I will post something worthwhile on this board if it kills me...

So don'tletsfeardeath's sn got me thinking about connections between HoL and Plato's Socratic dialogue called the Phaedo. It's a pretty important one, as Plato's dialogues go, since it's the one where Socrates drinks the hemlock. The reason that it's important for our purposes is that it relies heavily on the symbolism of the minotaur.
In the story, Socrates' execution is delayed for a day because of a festival commemorating theseus' rescuing of fourteen Athenian youths from the minotaur. Plato has phaedo make special mention of this, and also has, as his characters, Socrates and fourteen of his friends. It's generally accepted that Plato intended to set up this parallel. Socrates' conversation mostly centers around some dubious proofs of the immortality of the soul, but the most important message that he has is that, even if the soul dies with the body, one should not fear death. So, the minotaur that he is resuing them from becomes the fear of death.
So, what does this mean for HoL? If the minotaur is fear of death(and I don't mean to suggest that that's all it is) then Zampano has a good reason to cross him out - he is dying, and is trying to escape that fear, as socrates/plato suggests, in order that he may devote his attention to his philosophical work. Johnny reintroduces fear of death, perhaps because he can't escape it, which is why he's constantly imagining his own death.
As far as the minotaur as a sympathetic figure, that's not incongruous. I've heard people make the case that a reasonable amount of fear of death is what gives life meaning, or at least direction.
So anyway, I wasn't sure if that needed its own thread, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't been discussed before. Make of it what you will.

[Stencil]

You undoubtedly have a point, but I see it another way: what if Zampano crosses out the Minotaur sections because he thinks it doesn't fully emcompass fear of death, that he needs to come up with something better?

But what?

[dontletsfeardeath]

holy crap. i actually contributed something to the discussion of the book, albeit in a roundabout way.

[sal]

House of Leaves deals constantly with the subject of not knowing what you are afraid of. What it is. The unknown. Thus, I always assumed the minotaur-passages were crossed out because they do exactly that. Reveal what it is that causes fear. But I see a lot of intelligent and interesting insights in this thread. Great.

[zerolous]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dontletsfeardeath:
holy crap. i actually contributed something to the discussion of the book, albeit in a roundabout way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See man, I told you everything is related to the book. images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dontletsfeardeath:
holy crap. i actually contributed something to the discussion of the book, albeit in a roundabout way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It only took you 36 posts to do it.

Would you perhaps like a badge or something? images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Commie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by albuhtross:
My interpretation of the striking of the Minotaur lines is as follows:

HOL is supposed to be a maze that you enter and never escape from. It consumes you. Zampano, Johnny, the cycle continues with the guys in the band adding notes to their copy. The Minotaur, however, was seen as too big a clue by the author, and new "readers" of the book might get the clue and be warned into stopping their journey. It was therefore struck out so that readers would not realize their fate until they were already lost in the maze that is....HOL

Would love to hear other's thoughts on this...I just finished HOL and joined this site....have many theories and not sure how many of them others have or if I am reading way too much into parts of the book...BTW, Mark, if you ever read these posts, allow me to add my kudos to you on a remarkable (no pun intended) piece of work.

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: albuhtross ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I reeeally like this idea. Perhaps a small expansion on it. What do almost all mazes/labrynths have? Dead ends. Perhaps this is MZD's/Zampano's/Pelafina's way of putting a dead end into the story.

[jonahgus]

a long while back zerolous wrote:
"i believe that the so called strike through is actualy a visual key. It represents a thread, a length of string, such like the one [theseus] used ...to escape"

I am not yet finished with the book, so everyone should take my ideas with a grain of salt, but one of the things that really struck me was the first footnote on page 119, which deals with the varied mythological significances of thread (mention of Theseus in the labyrinth comes first but is struck through, and other references mentioned include the umbilical cord, the thread of life, and destiny). The last line tied in interestingly with Johnny's promiscuity: "Curiously in Orphic cults, thread symbolized semen." (This footnote appears not long after the strike-through begins, btw.)

The strike-through may well be a thread reference, and thread is a polyvalent symbol (though many of its meanings seem related, imo).

[ October 22, 2003: Message edited by: jonah gus ]

[The Disgruntled Frenchman]

<strike><font color=red>You really shouldn't be reading this board until you finish the book. It'll detract from the experience.

[Herr Skymarshall]

Alright Guys and Gals, you're probably going to think I'm silly, but this is a strange story if nothing else.

I've been lurking for a while, reading posts here and there. I actually let one of my professors borrow House of Leaves, so I don't have the book handy, and I haven't looked at it in several months.

I had a dream last night however, that said professor wanted me to write some kind of definitive essay on House of Leaves, and some other professor (that doesn't exist most likely) was arguing that their was no possible interpretation, that the book was just too complicated to write anything about.

I then responded (I'm summarizing what I can remember and trying to make me sound cooler, most likely) "What's at the center of the Labrynth?" "The Minotaur.", he responds. "Exactly! And that's what's been removed from the book, A Labrynth without the Minotaur is purposeless, House of Leaves is a book that has had it's purpose removed." "There is no longer any purpose, possibly any meaning."

He then grumbles and seems to give in, apparently I've gotten permission to write my essay now. (chuckle)

On a quick search this is the closest thing I found to these thoughts. Sorry if this is something that's been brought up before, I just thought it was a ridiculous dream, surprisingly memorable in detail, and entirely about interpretting House of Leaves, which is silly. So whether it's a new thought or not, enjoy my silly dream. :smile:


First, a warning: I'm over-tired and over-jazzed from seeing Mark and Poe on Conan. I've put some thought into the Minotaur topic and me, fatigue, caffiene (God bless it) and nicotine (God damn it) have come up with some answers.

The fact that the word Minotaur was "edited" from the text is of tantamount importence. It's as if Zampano used it initially and then decided it was inappropriate. The fact of the matter is that placing a Minotaur, wether metaphorically or physically, into Navidson's House would be incongruous (that may or may not be a word) with the very nature of the House. The House shifts and changes based on who enters it, so by placing a tangible creature in the House violates the very nature of the House.

Next, I'm gonna reference page 110 (the footnote that looks like a key) , "...King Minos did not build the labyrinth to imprison a monster but to conceal a deformed child his child". Going with this, it would seem that the "Minotaur" of the House would be the skeleton in everyone's closet. That one little secret you wish no one else knew. Again, by placing a tangible metaphor to it makes it static and not fit for the mutable House. There could be more here, but I can barely see straight. Anyone? Anyone?

Like him (yeah!) or not (boo) as an author, Mark is above cliches. I think he must have realized early on that people would associate his House to the Daedelus legend. Also, throwing the symbol of a Minotaur in with a maze-like setting is like putting frickin' Marlboro Miles next to me. They just go together. Always have, always will. Mark, then, was faced with the challenge of working around an obvious symbol. By utilizing (and "eliminating") the symbol of the Minotaur, Mark addressed the issue of the Minotaur, and cut would-be analysists off at the pass. Yeah, I knowthat's a cliche. I never said I was above 'em.

I think I've run out of steam for now. If I think of anything else, I'll be sure to add it.

-P

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: PaulHewson ]

[elmago]

I then responded (I'm summarizing what I can remember and trying to make me sound cooler, most likely) "What's at the center of the Labrynth?" "The <font color=#CC0C36>Minotaur</font>.", he responds. "Exactly! And that's what's been removed from the book, A Labrynth without the <font color=#CC0C36>Minotaur</font> is purposeless, <font color=#0C5FF0>House</font> of Leaves is a book that has had it's purpose removed." "There is no longer any purpose, possibly any meaning."



This sound to me like the Architecture is comunication thing in Haunted.... and the fact that THE MINOTAUR is no HOMIE at all, so It seems your dream is on to something. If you dream later about submitting your essay, please share the experience.

I also don't rember anyone mentioning this before. If f_s is lurking, perhaps he could make a guest appearance to clear this out! :wink:

[Nash]

This sound to me like the Architecture is comunication thing in Haunted.... and the fact that THE <font color=#CC0C36><font color=#CC0C36><font color=#CC0C36>Minotaur</font></font></font> is no HOMIE at all, so It seems your dream is on to something. If you dream later about submitting your essay, please share the experience.

I also don't remember anyone mentioning this before. If f_s is lurking, perhaps he could make a guest appearance to clear this out! :wink:

[spoiler warning]




Don't know if it helps but "the minotaur" without "homie" = "Truant"
(see eurokarte here (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1442))




[/spoiler warning]