Last Page: Yggdrasil?

[Felicia]

The last page has really been bugging me ever since I finished the book the first time.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Y g g
d
r
a
s
i
l

What miracle is this? This giant tree.
It stands ten thousand feet high
But doesn't reach the ground. Still it stands.
Its roots must hold the sky.

O<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the heck...?! I'm completely lost on what this means, if it means anything. Does it have anything to do with p. 623 in Appendix B (a.k.a. The Whalestoe Letters) when Johnny's mother writes in one of her letters: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
My hands resembles some ancient tree: the roots that bind up the earth, the rock and the ceaselessly nibbling wordms. And what does "Yggdrasil" mean? Can anyone help me figure this out? It's driving me completely up the wall images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Spanish_Doll ]

[fragileconciousness]

For real spanish doll!!!! I've read it 3 times in 2 days and I still have no clue whatsoever what relevance this has to...anything. Somebody help us...(shivering)

[Lost_In_Crete]

Yggdrasil is the tree that combines all 3 worlds in (I believe it's) Norse mythology. Coincidentally it's a tree made of ash... Ash Tree Lane... anyway as for the mother reference that's very possible that there's an allusion there somewhere... a lot of posts have been made suggesting the tree to have something to do with femininity, birth, the uterus, etc... do some searching around the site or on yahoo (at least before other people post information w/links images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
<I have to point out that Yggdrasil was also the archenemy in the NES Strider game... this has no pertinence to anything, but I was playing through it the other day and found it kinda freaky>

[mzdquestions]

This post originated on the dallas based bbs at the link at the bottom of the page it is by Lisalove and covers most of what you might be wanting to know...

taken from the book"the woman's dictionary of symbols and sacred objects"
I knew that the ash tree was considerd sacred to the godess BUT youll like this heres the meaning of the symbolism of An ash tree

"ASH
Yggdrasil, the world of ash tree Norse myth ,had three huge roots.One root stretched to the underground spiring of URD(earth) , where the Norns live in thier cave and prepetually decied the fates of human beings.Urd was the name of the eldest norn.The Norns were the nortehrn version of the Fortunae or Moerae who were also called Melaie,"ash-tree nymphs" by the greks.
The second root of thw world ash tree reached to the well of Mimir in the land of the frost giants .This well was the source of all wisdom.Odin sacraficed one of his eyes for a drink from its enlightning waters.In Cornwall he was remeberd as Odin the Wanderer or the Troll of Tolcarne,whom one could summon by holding Leaves of ash,oak and thorn,while pronouncing a secret phrase that could only be taught by a woman to a man, or by a man to a woman as in the witches circle of alternating sexes.
The third root of teh world ash tree went to Niflheum, the underworld presided over by the goddess Hel. To enter teh underworld and learn its feminine secrets , such as the magic of the runes,Odin hung nine nights on the tree as a sacrafice to his won godhead.In the druidic tree alphabet the ash was Nor nion ,meaning knowledge.
the roots of Yggdrsil produced a ,agic f;uid called aurr, never precisley defined, but most probably the same life giving female lunar blood that lies secretly at the root of all universal-elixer myths.The tree was also the universal mother "source of un born souls" like the tree of life found in nearly all Asiatic myths.One story said that the first man, Askr was created from the ash tree:hence his name.The latin name of this tree is Fraxinus"firelight" though this may have meant the light of knowledge , ash was a traditonal wood for the ule log."

So i think that that s pretty cool esp all the reference in the book to the house being "vaginal" with its black ness and how the Men have the need to explore it...the lack of communication between karen and Navidson and so on i think you can get what i mean.

null (http://null)KDGE House of Leaves/Poe BBS (http://161.58.94.121/boards/board.cgi?user=TheDiva)

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: mzdquestions ]

[kimlan]

so since there i s a strong connection with female symbolizism and Ash Tree, the house represent karen, delail, daisy, and Johnny mother... and since men (at first) only entered the house- thier journey was about women ?? And note how the house creased to exist after Karen saves Navy.

[Winteredge]

The similarity here of how Wotan (Odin) of Norse Mythos placed himself on this great tree to gain knowledge, and is thereafter sometimes referred to as the "Gallows God", not to mention that he loses his left eye in exchange for wisdom, much like Navidson.

[invisibleman]

very interesting.

not to mention the quote about how the home truely belongs to the woman and that men are forever guests...

[Joep Trommelen]

Thank you all for enlightening me on thsi subject. This is what sites like this are for. At first I thought that Mark only wanted to add more 'blackness' to the shades in the book. I read an interview with him where he explains that, like Orson Wells in Citizen Kane, he put 'blackness' in parts of the book to make it more spooky. Well did this in his film; he put very black objects for instance in the curtains, because he thought they appeared to grey on celluloid. Since I read Mark explaining this, I tend to believe that a lot of the things that I don't understand are 'just a little more black'. How arrogant of me....

[Johnny Truant]

Actually, seeing as how the house was originally on Oak Tree Lane in the original drafts, and Yggdrasil was added at the very end... possibly MZD truly was just adding more blackness to the house....

For more info, check out http://houseofleaves.4t.com/guide.html

[Aloysius]

there is a reference on page 357 that links the house to women as the darkness is (it claims) an incarnation of the womb.

[Uberchief]

Ok- I see all the stuff about Nordic myth. But what's the significance of the WAY its written? And the two opposing 'O' shapes at the top and bottom of the page.

[hello?]

Um... it sort of looks like a tree? I dunno. Ygg is the leaves, and drasil is the trunk, and the little poem at the bottom is the roots; Heaven, Earth, and Hell? Maybe the O at the bottom is the river that sustains the tree. Also, the mythology says that at the Ragnarok, everything will be destroyed, but the tree will remain to start life anew. I think. Notice how the house seems to be older than the universe itself? Maybe the universe is constantly being destroyed and rebuilt, and all that remains is the house. Oh, and another thing... in Flagstaff, Johnny sleeps under an Ash tree. Just something to think about.

[Jesse]

Keep in mind that the mythic Yggdrasil had worlds in its trunk, branches and its roots. The roots were reserved for lower planes (hels and what-not). The maze part of the house lies underground where the foundation (roots of a house) should lie. If the norse mythology were to be believed, Yggdrasil would be the orginal "house of leaves." (interesting, compare characters in book with Norse myth, Holloway=Thor etc?)

Within the roots of the mythic Yggdrasil lies a serpent (who's name escapes me), gnawing at the roots, driving venom into the tree and trying to destory the world. Much like the darkness, coldness, silence and roars of the maze drive men mad.

One last thing, Odin (the father-Creator-Zeus figure of the Norsemen) traded pain for knowledge on at least two occasions. For one of these he hung on Yggdrasil for 7 days and nights. This suffering parrells that of the characters in the book. (See also, the Hanged Man in Tarot and death of Jesus (hanging from a tree))

Another quick note, since Mark puts one line of 3 letters on the last page, it may mean something. YGG=Egg? Egg is vaginal, also, "the Egg that hatches worlds."

New to the board, curious if anyone has exaimined book from a Qabbalistic point of view.

-Rev. Jesse

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Rev. Jesse ]

[Lantern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sen:
The norns are three demi godesses of destiny who control the destinies of both gods and men. The three norns are Urd, Verdandi (necessity), and Skuld (being). There are three powerful woman characters in this book, Pelafina who helps shape Johnny's life, and perhaps Zampano's, Delial who is integral to Navy's life, and Karen, also integral to Navy's life, along with Chad and Tom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this idea! The idea of P. controlling, in some way, the fates of Johnny and Z., certainly makes her more of a prominent figure in the overall story. Question though: What does Urd mean?

The Norse connection is also detailed http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000889

and
http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000863

and
http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000810

and
http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000451

The thread of vision as a price of wisdom as it relates to Z. is interesting to me.

Similarly, it could be argued that Oedipus paid the price for his heedless pursuit of knowledge with his vision -- he sought the truth despite several warnings to desist. Could this tie in to Navy's decision to return to the house, despite all the reasons not to?

Sorry this is not more focused. Too much wine last night, too much coffee this morning.

L.

[Lantern]

So we have fate, necessity and being.

Could P. be fate? Johnny's descent into maddness, fated to him by his mother.

Karen, necessity? Protecting the family by getting the kids out of the house?

Delial as being? The thing that drives/defintes Navy? (Perhaps haunts is a better word).

Any thoughts?
L.

[Lantern]

Good stuff!

Alternatively, what about P. as being? In the Whale, she can do little else but be - a prisoner of her mind and the Whale itself.

Just a thought.

L.

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sen:
...Perhaps the colored O and the open O are for life and death, polar opposites. Yggdrasil is the tree of life, and part of everylife is death...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to suggest that one idea is right and another is wrong, but I also remember this being an alternative cool explanation forThe Black Dot (http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000762).

The big black dot could be a footnote marker, and Yggdrasil could be the footnote. After everything else in the book is finished, lying outside the boundaries of the Navidson Record, Johnny's annotations, barely contained within the book, Yggdrasil could stand as the ultimate footnote. But footnote to what? To the giant black dot on page 312, which serves as the exaggerated full stop to the previous sentence? Or is Yggdrasil footnote to every dot in the book? Every time we finish a sentence, the full stop footnotes us straight to Yggdrasil. Every word uttered in the book is bound by Yggdrasil.

Like I said, just a suggestion I remembered reading and happened to like. Just thought it fitted nicely here too.

Doesn't account for the open O too, though. Shame. It probably means all these things anyway. The balance of life and death, a footnote marker, etc, etc.

[thehulk]

I hope this helps:
In Old Norse Ygg was one of Odins many names it means Terrible one Drasil Means Horse, so Yggsrasil means horse of Odin. The Name Yggdrasil refers to when Odin Impaled himself on the tree with his spear and hung there for 9 nights, doing so gave him the knowledge of the Ruins (Nordic Alphebet belived to be magical).

[Knuzt]

all right so this topic hasn't been picked up in a while and it's a shame, theres a lot of good stuff here.

However, I did use the search engine, and it occurred to me that in no posts on yggdrasil was there a reference to the roots as symbolizing the worlds in which this book takes place and mind you, it binds it together. please read the post by mzdquestions above.
We have three worlds of Truant and Pelafina (the norns that create the world-Truant puts together the book); Zampano (wisdom, he is clearly very wise, and furthermore he is blind, keeping in mind that Odin had to sacrifice an eye to attain wisdom!) and the navidson record (well, that's hel(l) shouldn't need to elaborate more on that).

So what is the meaning of this tree that binds together the three "frames" of the book? Is it just to show that the stories interact? Or is there somthing more profound to it? I ask as I haven't found anthing satisfactory on the search engine so far.

[Paulb]

Yggdrasil is indeed something to do with kabbalistic teachings... I didnt think that it would be too odd considering the authors father - but pretty much fits the bill with the story too (somethin bout a tree like the norse thing).

[malakite]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeeAlso:
This may be overly simplistic, but i've always viewed yggdrasil as a symbol for the novel itself.
Yggdrasil is said to connect three worlds, while the novel / navidson record unites the three 'worlds' of pelfina, johnny and zampano.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P, J, and Z all inhabit the same world. Navidson inhabits a different world, as evidenced by the fact that he is a fictional character.

how about this for three worlds: Navidson, Johnny and the reader? each one views the one below him as fictional and is unaware of the one above. makes more sense than Pela/Zamp/Johnny.

[ass_shaped_smile]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by malakite:



how about this for three worlds: Navidson, Johnny and the reader? each one views the one below him as fictional and is unaware of the one above. makes more sense than Pela/Zamp/Johnny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that begs the question: Who's reading us?

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ass_shaped_smile:
...Who's reading us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karen. Maybe that's what is in her big book.

[SeeAlso]

This may be overly simplistic, but i've always viewed yggdrasil as a symbol for the novel itself.
Yggdrasil is said to connect three worlds, while the novel / navidson record unites the three 'worlds' of pelfina, johnny and zampano.

[Themnoria]

I just read your mom.

[Gordex]

Hey I was talking to my friend about the norse mythology parts explained in this post and he mentioned that the monster that ate the roots of the tree was a dragon.

I had the book with me and he happened to open it up to "Tom's Story" and read allowed a part from page 260. It talks about the shadow puppets that Tom makes on his tent wall. He is making shapes for the monster and the one he finally settles on is a dragon which he fears will eat him. (extra creepy since my friend hasn't read the book and pulled the passage at random). The dragon eating the roots/foundation to the house may explain the dissapearing markers and broken boot laces. It also gives a face to the monster.

[drone]

Just a quickie, and possible (partial) explanation.

Page 113: "In many legends the 'centre of the world' is concretized as a tree or pillar symbolising a vertical axis mundi".

Page 112: "the center is, paradoxically, within the center and outside it. The center is at the center of the totality, and yet, since the center does not belong to the totality... the totality has its center elsewhere".

Relevant? Irrelevant? Who's to say with this book?

I'm pretty sure that the creature that lived among the roots of Yggdrasil was Jormungand, the snake, but Norsemen didn't really have dragons so there might be some crossover there.

[Nash]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drone:

I'm pretty sure that the creature that lived among the roots of Yggdrasil was Jormungand, the snake, but Norsemen didn't really have dragons so there might be some crossover there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right.
I think dragon (and tiger) have to be connected with yin and yang.

[immortaldead]

screw you guys for not mentioning the post i did on this topic. and screw you for not reading it. i found a connection throughout the entire book between the aviation symbols used and runes meanings related to them. the thread is under
:yggdrassil rune connection
there's a lot of information in there and i really would appreciate some kind of feedback on it this time.

[Variable]

I think the O is meant to show that it is written by P. as she signs one of her letters Mmmy... what is missing? The big O.

[fatwoul]

I think the O is meant to show that it is written by P. as she signs one of her letters Mmmy... what is missing? The big O.

Yeah I like that one. :D

[heartbreak]

In the Haunted liner notes, there is the referance guide linking the songs to certain pages in the book, each song referances a page concerning Johnny, a page concerning the Navidson Record, and one of P.'s letters.

For example: Walk The Walk: pg 180 JT, pg 467 NR, pg 613 (Nov. 1, '85) The Letters

Each listing is that way except for two.

Wild: pg 78 JT, pg 16 NR, pg 559 The Letters

(pg 559 isn't actually one of the letters, its the poem called The Panther, maybe the poem has something to do with P.)

and

If You Were Here: pg 518-519 JT, pg 528 NR, Pg 709


(perhaps another link between Yggdrasil and P.)

[stevenflorence]

The last page has really been bugging me ever since I finished the book the first time.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Y g g
d
r
a
s
i
l

What miracle is this? This giant tree.
It stands ten thousand feet high
But doesn't reach the ground. Still it stands.
Its roots must hold the sky.



[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: Spanish_Doll ]


i believe that the tree described here is the Sephirothic Tree of Life. when i first read this in the book it made me think of the tree in the Neon Genesis film 'the end of evangelion' i will try to find a picture to post here later but in the mean time watch the film.

[stevenflorence]

The Sephirothic Tree of Life

http://www.amaluxherbal.com/images/Fludd%20Sephirothic%20Tree%20web.jpg

it says that the tree stands 10 thousand feet high which made me think each Sephiroth (or Sphere) could represent 1000 feet because there are 10 sephiroths on the tree, and notice how the tree in the picture is upsidedown? this could be "the roots holding up the sky".

note: there is the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden; the tree that Christ was crucified on; Yggdrasil, the tree that Odin hung upside down from in Norse mythology before receiving the knowledge of the Runes; and the Bodhi tree that Buddha sat under. All trees relating to the roots of wisdom and life.

[UberMan]

I always thought of the "ten thousand feet" bit as being not entirely accurate, and the number 10,000 was used sort of as a metaphor to hint at the Tree being really goddamn big, and not as a literal height measurement.

[Raminagrobis]

I always thought of the "ten thousand feet" bit as being not entirely accurate, and the number 10,000 was used sort of as a metaphor to hint at the Tree being really goddamn big, and not as a literal height measurement.

Yeah, that's how I took it, decem milia saepe pro infinito numero accipiuntur.

Ten thousand is also (literally) a myriad. The only use of the word 'myriad' seems to be on p. 48, in the passage where Johnny rants about 'differance' and the elusiveness of meaning: the 'myriad of games' held in the word 'gold' (which alludes to p. 626 if I'm not mistaken).

[juxtapolemic]

reading the above posts i drew a relation between the mythic yggdrasil and the tree to which chad sought refuge as Navidson was yet lost within the house.

and to answer an old question above, the snake entwining the tree was, i believe, ouroborous.

[fearful_syzygy]

No that would be Níðhöggr, I believe, the snake/dragon which lives at the bottom of the Well of Hvergelmir, gnawing incessantly on the deepest root of Yggdrasil and 'feasts on the mighty dead' in order to sustain itself.


However, given the tendency for myths and legends to overlap and intertwine in HoL, I think it might be reasonable to suggest that the O under Yggdrasil is in fact the Ouroboros (http://abacus.best.vwh.net/oro/ouroboros.html).

I tentatively tried to draw some parallels between Old Norse mythology and Gnosticism here (http://houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24514#24514), but I may have been clutching at straws. (I was certainly talking out of my arse). That was a long time ago, glad to see not much has changed...

Welcome to the forum, btw.


Edit: Just for fun...

Askurinn er allra trjáa mestur og bestur. Limar hans dreifast yfir heim allan og standa yfir himni. Þrjár rætur trésins halda því uppi og standa afar breitt. Ein er með ásum en önnur með hrímþursum, þar sem forðum var Ginnungagap. Hin þriðja stendur yfir Niflheimi, og undir þeirri rót er Hvergelmir, en Níðhöggur gnagar neðan rótina. En undir þeirri rót er til hrímþursa horfir, þar er Mímisbrunnur, er spekt og manvit er í fólgið, og heitir sá Mímir er á brunninn. Hann er fullur af vísindum, fyrir því að hann drekkur úr brunninum af horninu Gjallarhorni. Þar kom Alföður og beiddist eins drykkjar af brunninum, en hann fékk eigi fyrr en hann lagði auga sitt að veði.
Which means, roughly translated:The Ash Tree is the largest and greatest of all trees. Its limbs spread over the the entire world and extend beyond the sky. The tree's three roots hold it up and are positioned very broadly. One is with the Æsir and another with the Frost Giants, where Ginnungagap once was. The third stands over Niflheimur, and under that root is Hvergelmir, but Níðhöggur gnaws at the bottom of that root. Under that root which lies with the Frost Giants, there lies Mímisbrunnur, in which knowledge and sense are held, and Mímir is the name of the one whose well it is. He is full of wisdom, for he drinks of the well with the horn Gjallarhorn. The All-father [Óðinn] came there and requested one drink of the well, but he was not granted it until he gave his eye in return.Sorry for the appalling translation; but at least it wasn't Babelfish!

[Stencil]

I think this one (http://abacus.best.vwh.net/oro/oro22.jpg) from India is most redolent of HoL, and also these two (http://abacus.best.vwh.net/oro/oro44.html), twins separated. By a ring? Could Karen be the Yoko Ono of the Navidsons?

[katatonic]

I was just reading about Yoko for one of my finals... How strange.

I think that's a good possiblity, that Karen could be the snake - she is written to be swarmed with temptation and deceit, however subtle it may or may not be.
And the book shows Tom's innocence (despite the drug/alcohol habit) in his good-heartedness. And Navy has become confused and lost, like a child, but still mirrors the goodness in his brother. They would be well-represented by those twins.

Or the house could be the snake. It is, in some ways, a circle, that they are stuck in. Maybe for eternity? And it reunites the brothers (the touching fingers in the picture), and then splits them up again.
Interesting.

[Stencil]

Or the <font color="#0000FF">House</font> could be the snake. It is, in some ways, a circle, that they are stuck in. Maybe for eternity? And it reunites the brothers (the touching fingers in the picture), and then splits them up again.
Interesting.

Very interesting: like Tom and Will, they are paradoxically estranged and reuinted by that very distance. And what is in the circle? Is it transparent or is in a mirror?

[katatonic]

Or the <font color="#0000FF"><font color="#0000FF">House</font></font> could be the snake. It is, in some ways, a circle, that they are stuck in. Maybe for eternity? And it reunites the brothers (the touching fingers in the picture), and then splits them up again.
Interesting.

Very interesting: like Tom and Will, they are paradoxically estranged and reuinted by that very distance. And what is in the circle? Is it transparent or is in a mirror?
I don't know. Maybe it's opaque. They may know exactly what is on the other side of it, but not quite be able to grasp it.
Or it could be a mirror, and maybe the brothers are each parts of one person - different parts of the psyche. (I know, it's been said before, but it's relevant.)
Or if it was transparent, I think the question would then be whether or not there was a boundary there. Is it glass, or are they actually touching?

[sutrix]

Is it glass, or are they actually touching?

Take it one step further: if they are touching, do they know (if) they are?

(I'm not being cryptic; I can't seem to expand on this idea.)

[katatonic]

Take it one step further: if they are touching, do they know (if) they are?

(I'm not being cryptic; I can't seem to expand on this idea.)
As long as we are looking at the twins as Navy and Tom, that still works.

The real problems start happening when we think about the suggestion that the Dr. Nowell baby was actually JT's twin, what does the picture signify then?
If it is a mirror, it could be JT either thinking that he has a twin, but it's really his reflection. Or it could be him imagining what is on the other side of the mirror.
If it is glass, is he unable to reach his brother?
If it is opaque, does that mean that there never was a brother - a reminder that the story is a story.
And what does the ring/snake signify? Zampano or Pelafina, or MZD or the house? That one picture can create a lot of loose ends.
But what else is new? :roll:

[fearful_syzygy]

And what does the ring/snake signify?
If the ring/snake signifies infinity, as it traditionally does, then I find it quite interesting that it should be gnawing at the root of Yggdrasil.

Tempres edax rerum.

[sutrix]

And what does the ring/snake signify?
If the ring/snake signifies infinity, as it traditionally does, then I find it quite interesting that it should be gnawing at the root of Yggdrasil.


Infinity gnawing at its roots/tail? I always thought that's what the symbol for infinity actually conveyed. Interesting indeed.

[scaredoutofmywits]

And what does the ring/snake signify?
If the ring/snake signifies infinity, as it traditionally does, then I find it quite interesting that it should be gnawing at the root of Yggdrasil.


Infinity gnawing at its roots/tail? I always thought that's what the symbol for infinity actually conveyed. Interesting indeed.


that's the point. Ouroborous, is "the infinity snake" and it is indeed chewing it's own tail, much like the never-ending rings of the infiinity symbol...

it's a seperate entity from the snake in the roots of Yggdrasil, as far as I thought.

[fearful_syzygy]

Absolutely. But just because they're separate entities in the mythological tradition, there's no reason why they can't be mixed and matched in HoL.

And welcome aboard, scared. I'm fearful.

[NuerotoxicRomantic]

please pardon if this idea has been posted before.

Seeing how the house is at a nexus between religious and pagan beliefs (the corner of succoth and ash tree lane) Is is possible that on the same page that it would include The Tree from nonchristian belief and include the "O" in a christian sense of "Alpha and Omega" Which means beginning and end. I always thought the "O" would stand for "omega" because it is the last page of the book and thus making it the "end" of the book.

just my thoughts, please comment

[fearful_syzygy]

Yeah I sort of suggested that in this post (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=54467#54467) a while ago, and I still think it makes sense. :)

[modiFIed]

Ygg - (egg) - O - (omega)

In some cosmogonies, the world was hatched from an egg.

An "O" looks like an egg.

An egg sandwich is a very good meal for a summer afternoon.

[NuerotoxicRomantic]

mega does not only measure in size, but also in ammount. In my dictionary it lists mega as "millions or multiplied by a million"

Someone will have to fill in the gaps here because I honestly cannot. But could that mean that there are a million "O" 's? I don't know what the O would stand for in that case, I do not have much knowledge on Norse Mythology (hint: somoene please give me a link to some nice reading materials on the subject) But it might mean a million "things" under Yggdrasil......I remember on the last page it says "It stands ten thousand feet high but it doesn't reach the ground." Meaning that there is something on the ground beneath it?

again, someone will have to fill in the gaps, I'm just opening a door, I don't know anything about anything behind it.

[sutrix]

Someone will have to fill in the gaps here because I honestly cannot. But could that mean that there are a million "O" 's?

A million entries? A million exits?

[fearful_syzygy]

Someone will have to fill in the gaps here because I honestly cannot. But could that mean that there are a million "O" 's?
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. ;)

[NuerotoxicRomantic]

whats....the Albert Hall?

[fearful_syzygy]

http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1725

[luminousechoes]

this thread has been very informative.

[DirkyDiggy]

The paradoxyl center of all three worlds? 0

[fearful_syzygy]

paradoxyl
Is that some kind of prescription drug?

Sounds like it might be a placebo, in that case.

[DirkyDiggy]

paradoxyl
Is that some kind of prescription drug?

Sounds like it might be a placebo, in that case.

Haha...I'm sorry, did I spell it wrong?....or is it possibly the wrong word? "Sounds unbelievable but, could still be true" is the my definition for the word I was trying to use. Not paradox?

[fearful_syzygy]

I think the word you're looking for may be 'paradoxical'.

[DirkyDiggy]

I think the word you're looking for may be 'paradoxical'.

There you go

[Kyem]

Even the title of the book implicitly claims it is Yggdrasil.
If you consider that a tree houses leaves; hence being a house of leaves.

[ManiKatt]

Please expand on that

[Kyem]

My belief spawns from what I've witnessed both in the book (obviously), myself, and the forum here (although admittedly I'm only a recent member). As I explained, I believe there's a clear connection between House of Leaves, as a figurative tree, and Yggdrasil...I suppose as another figurative tree.
There also seems to be some interaction between the narrators (the Pisces error); at least there is some form of relationship between them: Johnny is connected to Zampano via the black trunk; P is related to Johnny, and seems to be familiar with Zampano (the coded message). Suggesting some form of extension ("roots) communicating information between them. Secondly, Zampano's writings, through Johnny, seem to influence not only Johnny's direct environment (the pictures, ordure etc.), but the people he relates to; I understand that's a tenuous link and merely psychological, but which religious theory is based entirely upon the physical?
Finally, the message of the book (the roots of Yggdrasil) diffuse not only through its interior, but also seem to have influenced those external to it, i.e its readership. I believe there's a thread here dedicated to reader's book induced nightmares.
Also, another interesting interpretation of House of Leaves, given the dual meaning of leaf, as page and leaf, it becomes a house of pages, i.e a book. Its refreshing to read an author who's a fan of ambiguity, as the duality of the title seems to infer that yes, the book has the potential to be everything, but all things considered it remains a book.
I can only hope that is...a slightly adequate clarification; if not I'll continue to ponder it, and, if you haven't disregarded the entire theory (or for that matter if I haven't), I'll edit the post once I've slept.

[The_key_looker]

This post originated on the dallas based bbs at the link at the bottom of the page it is by Lisalove and covers most of what you might be wanting to know...

taken from the book"the woman's dictionary of symbols and sacred objects"
I knew that the ash tree was considerd sacred to the godess BUT youll like this heres the meaning of the symbolism of An ash tree

"ASH
Yggdrasil, the world of ash tree Norse myth ,had three huge roots.One root stretched to the underground spiring of URD(earth) , where the Norns live in thier cave and prepetually decied the fates of human beings.Urd was the name of the eldest norn.The Norns were the nortehrn version of the Fortunae or Moerae who were also called Melaie,"ash-tree nymphs" by the greks.
The second root of thw world ash tree reached to the well of Mimir in the land of the frost giants .This well was the source of all wisdom.Odin sacraficed one of his eyes for a drink from its enlightning waters.In Cornwall he was remeberd as Odin the Wanderer or the Troll of Tolcarne,whom one could summon by holding Leaves of ash,oak and thorn,while pronouncing a secret phrase that could only be taught by a woman to a man, or by a man to a woman as in the witches circle of alternating sexes.
The third root of teh world ash tree went to Niflheum, the underworld presided over by the goddess Hel. To enter teh underworld and learn its feminine secrets , such as the magic of the runes,Odin hung nine nights on the tree as a sacrafice to his won godhead.In the druidic tree alphabet the ash was Nor nion ,meaning knowledge.
the roots of Yggdrsil produced a ,agic f;uid called aurr, never precisley defined, but most probably the same life giving female lunar blood that lies secretly at the root of all universal-elixer myths.The tree was also the universal mother "source of un born souls" like the tree of life found in nearly all Asiatic myths.One story said that the first man, Askr was created from the ash tree:hence his name.The latin name of this tree is Fraxinus"firelight" though this may have meant the light of knowledge , ash was a traditonal wood for the ule log."

So i think that that s pretty cool esp all the reference in the book to the House being "vaginal" with its black ness and how the Men have the need to explore it...the lack of communication between karen and Navidson and so on i think you can get what i mean.

null (http://null)KDGE House of Leaves/Poe BBS (http://161.58.94.121/boards/board.cgi?user=TheDiva)

[ June 29, 2001: Message edited by: mzdquestions ]


I am inclined to agree with you there even if MZD did not have that in mind it does fit well.

[Davinche]

I dont no why but I never hear of the house being refered to as God, Navidson thought so but maybe I missed a few threads where you completely destroy this idea but why cant the House be God? That would make a whole lot of sense, it would bring alot of meaning to HOL and would explain the last page where Yggdrasil is mentioned. In that poem Yggdrassil is described as being upside-down where the roots hold up the sky, this would make the leaves in the mortal realm or on earth. So could HOL be called HOL because it is a reference to God? I mean the leaves in Yggdrasil are a reference to the devine so wouldn't that make HOL House of God? Probably been discussed in a previouse thread but I thought I'd write it here anyway.

[Kyem]

The house does not create; it merely assimilates everything which enters it. If anything it's more akin to Dante's inferno. Some imperious power subjugating all.

[ManiKatt]

THe text says God is an "equal sign" and I think the House being bigger on the inside than on the outside is everything but an equal sign.

[fearful_syzygy]

why cant the House be God?

it's more akin to Dante's inferno

Hey Dudes! (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3655)

[Davinche]

The house can still be an equal sign just not in the sense of a mathmatical equation where 5=5 maybe the house equals all because god is all?

[elmago]

the House is an anti-god.

[Davinche]

Could you explain?

[po-m]

Stan Brakhage's film: Yggdrasill Whose Roots Are Stars in the Human Mind (http://www.fredcamper.com/Film/BrakhageS.html#Yggdrasill)

[sykes1024]

To me, it seems that putting the word yggdrasil and the poem was MZD's way of giving us the last clue to tell us the big metaphor he was going for.
The metaphor being that the house IS Yggdrasil. I think the idea was the subtle clues were the refrences of the title: House of leaves, the fact that it is located on ashtree lane, and that the interior of the hallway and the walls are described as being made of an ash-like material.
And the idea of some one entering and being lost in Yggdrasil would make sense as an allusion or metaphor to the story of when one of the norse gods hung himself on Yggdrasil for many days before coming down.

[The_key_looker]

My belief spawns from what I've witnessed both in the book (obviously), myself, and the forum here (although admittedly I'm only a recent member). As I explained, I believe there's a clear connection between House of Leaves, as a figurative tree, and Yggdrasil...I suppose as another figurative tree.

hmmm...The tree of life?

[llama]

I've been thinking this through today and I have mentioned it elsewhere, ("effects/nightmares", and "navitson and his book") But the more I think about it the more I believe the house = the universe = yggdrasil. The untitled poem fragment
"little solace comes
to those who greive
when thoughts keep drifting
as walls keep shifting
and this great blue world of ours
seems a house of leaves

moments before the wind,"

The yggdrasil tree gave knowledge to Odin. So the leaves could represent knowledge or fragments of knowledge about the universe. In our searching for truth in the book, we are building this house of leaves. (Our understanding of the book/truth). But our seperate realities of how we view the book are always in danger of craching down or being blown away. Our understanding of what is the truth changes with added knowledge. The house is said to be older than the universe, and like yggdrasil it comes crashing down on tom. The snake causes the yggdrasil to die, and the fact that the house of leaves is a work of fiction can cause the house of leaves universe and any semballance of reality that it carries to also be destroyed. The tree is life. Or rather the book is life and our life is a house of leaves.

I'm probably not making any sense, but I need to get this out so I can sleep. does this make ANY sense?

Oh also I looked up "norse" on the internet and one thing that came up was that it is sometimes used to discribe the norwegian language. This reminded me of the beatles song Norwegian wood...anyways it talks about burning norwegian wood which could represnt ash (as mzdquestions pointed out ash wood was used for burning). anyways It seems to have connection to Navidson burning the book HOL and also to johnny wanting to burn it. I know there are other beatles refrences in HOL so could this have some sort of connection?..mabey?....


I think I'm going crazy.........nah...I'v already gone crazy.

[JimmyJack1]

Hi. Check this out. You guys are examining the last page and it has 4 major parts:

"The Dot"
Yggdrasil
The Poem
The "O"

There's no one answer. We know this.
The interesting thing that's been overlooked, especially considering so much of the book deals with the theme of space, is how the parts are arranged. There's a big space in between the 'Yggdrasil' and the Poem. To me this suggests division. I don't think the poem and "O" specifically relate to "The Dot" and Yggdrasil but rather mirror it. Turn it sideways. With all the talk in this thread about twins and mirrors I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned. What I'm suggesting is a kinship between the Yggdrasil and the Sephirothic tree. Think family tree. Two Brothers? Tom and Will. Brother and sister, Chad and Daisy. MZD and Poe. . . ?

The space in between actually creates a 5th major part of the page. Possibly a divide.

There's still the question of the meaning of "The Dot" and the "O." I like what I've seen so far, about snakes and infinity and stuff. That's neat. Those are also pretty delicate symbols of sexuality. The Dot looks about the right size to fit inside the "O" if you catch my meaning. I don't think it's any accident that those two symbols are on opposite sides of the page when one considers several other recurring themes in the book.

So we have an overall image/page/leaf that is very layered and very connected to the rest of the book. Most books also sit face up. The Front is the "top" and the Back is the "bottom" so it's cool that the last page is so laden with stuff about trees and roots.

There's also a lot to be said about the negative values of the final page. I don't mean negative values as in bad or malicious. . . but negative in a sense of reversal of values. Like the negative of a picture. But I feel I've said enough for now.

Wait. I'd like to quickly address the idea that the house does not create, it only assimilates. On the surface this is true and from the perspective of those that have associated with The House, it holds some resonance. But everyone that went into the house was inextricably changed. And isn't that a form of creation? Think on it and you'll find a paradox of values within the house that's transcends light and dark, and
centrality. Do not dismiss the creative powers of The House, not just as an entity but also as a catalyst for change.

There's lots more I'd like to expand on but I think this post is already too long. I hope those of you that have put your time into this thread still monitor it so we might discuss it further. Thank you for bearing with me.

[ujsrac]

i've only read this thread and searched for the "yggdrasil rune connection" thread (which i didn't find), but i feel like not enough has been made of the fact that yggdrasil was the tree on which odin sacrificed himself in order to bring back to humanity a system of writing. i can't articulate it, but there seems to me to be some connection between Odin and Johnny in this regard--this self-inflicted pain (Odin's self-sacrifice, Johnny's piecing together of HoL and realizing that he doesn't exist) to facilitate asynchronous communication for others (humanity in Odin's case, Pelafina and . . . herself? (who the hell knows?) in Johnny's case). Of course, if this interpretation is valid and we take the view that the house symbolizes yggdrasil as well (it seems to, as others have noted), that would suggest that one of the characters in the Navidson Record might do something Odin-like, might sacrifice himself to allow the others to have knowledge and the power of communication. It's tempting to think of Tom in some way, but Odin comes back and Tom doesn't. So maybe the idea is garbage anyhow, or maybe i'm articulating it poorly. I don't know.

On a related note I found a very weird web site for Asatruar, the present-day followers of Asatru, which they claim is the norse branch of a pan-european pre-Christian religion. They worship Odin and the other Gods/Goddesses and mention Yggdrasil. Here's a link to an interesting poem about Yggdrasil and Odin, and an explanation of the Runes:

http://asatru.org/runes.html

(After poking around on asatru.org, i think it might be a thinly-veiled white supremacist site, but i'm not sure--either way, the poem is interesting and relevant.)

[marsjams13]

Nice try on searching, but i think you were too specific. Check this (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3953#Yggdrasil) out. Happy reading!

[Sigma]

About the House being god:

Didn't Navy say that he thought the House belonged to God, that he lived in it? This does go with the Yggdrasil theory as well, since Yggdrasil held up the entire world, including Asgard, which would make it the home of the gods as well.

But more importantly, what would happen if the Ultimate source of Creation, God, dwelled within the Ultimate Assimlator, the House? Could it possibly, say, create a universe?

[ujsrac]

navy says in his letter to karen that the house *is* god--is that what you mean?

[Sigma]

I checked again, and you're right, he did say that he believed the house is God. But I find the above theory too comfortable to ignore.

[dahlia johad]

I'm sure this has been covered in some other post, but I'm suprised it hasnt been discused here. Sorry if I'm repeating something we all, know, but I find this interesting.

Look at the last page. The way this forum works, i cant replicate the text exactly, but look at how YGGDRASIL is typed. It looks like...a nail, right?

Now, lets check out page 580 (the Pelican Poems).The very fist part of this poem...

More than a cafe - un verre d'eau
If there was a clue worth holding onto
it was the nail
the strongest point that alone,
at first,
fixed and recreated,
the house.


Yggdrasil could very well indeed be the nail, and the most important clue. Looking at the tree as a nail, and remember the old saying "Hitting The Nail On The Head" we can go deeper.

Hitting a tree on the head wouldn't accomplish much except for BREAKING THE BRACHES (which I'll get to), but hitting a nail on the head drives it into the structure of whatever you're building.
The nails (or tree) hold the House together. They are essential.

Now, getting to BREAKING THE BRANCHES...
We must also look at Naglfar, the hel ship (or 'nail ship') that appears after Yggdrasil's BRACH HAS SNAPPED during Ragnaraok (the end of the world). Naglfar is built from the nails of dead men.

Even deeper now...
Pg. 630 (Whatestoe Letters)
March 19,1988
"I had long, rediculous PURPLE nails beck then. The first thing they did when I got here was tie me down and cut them off..."

And Page 55 of the Whalestoe Letters contains a section that looksort of like this.

??
??
??
??
?????????????????

?????????????????
??
??
??
??

i had suggested to my friend Kurt that the "?"'s in Pelefina's letter appear as a nail. He, however, claimed it could just as well be a hallway.Nails hold a your structure together, the hallways hold the house together. Perhaps the hallways are nails.

And what was even more interesting was this post:





Every time we finish a sentence, the full stop footnotes us straight to Yggdrasil. Every word uttered in the book is bound by Yggdrasil.



If every word is bound to Yggrasil, then the book is bound by Yggdrasil.

And if the book is the house,
then the house is bound to Yggrasil.
AND if Yggrasil is a nail, as I've said above
it would most certainly bind the house together.

Just something to think about. Enjoy.

[fearful_syzygy]

Well there was this thread (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4242) a while ago which raised some of the same issues before getting lost in a spectacular display of cross-purpose posting.

The Clue from Paris indeed.

[silja]

Yggdrasil is the spine of our existance. She is above even the gods and she is the floor, the ceiling, the roof of the world. The tree of life.

[kilrath]

Turn the page upside down and what do you have... the solid dot represents a the earth solid through, the the empty dot represents the sky, the word

Ygg
d
r
a
s
i
l

is the tree and the poem are the roots, holding up the sky

[heartbreak]

Turn the page upside down and what do you have... the solid dot represents a the earth solid through, the the empty dot represents the sky, the word

Ygg
d
r
a
s
i
l

is the tree and the poem are the roots, holding up the sky

or leave it right side up, the solid dot is the black expanse of space, and ygg (meaning terrible) and drasil (meaning steed) being the roots of the word Yggdrasil are holding it up.

Haven't got time right now to research if that has been posted before sucking down coffee on the way out the door, and kilrath's post inspired the thought. If you do find it, please link so we can give credit where its due. I'll search later if no one has posted a link.

[blueyelie]

Alright, this is my first acutal insight post and I'm a little nervous. I read through most of the yggdrasil stuff and didn't see something like this so here it goes:

On page 312, the remastered full color edition, there is a big dot. I was starting to think about this in context with where it is and what it means and etc. Ending with Navy stranded in the dark labryinth and tape ran out and no light. That dot is his world. Darkness, no sense of direction; you could walk around in a circle in the dark and be somewhere new everytime because you don't know where you were from. (Is this making sense??)
Then I thought more into this mark as maybe a footnote since symbols before were used as footnotes (a la chapter V for example). Well since there was no footnote on that page itself I saw it as an end to my little idea.

AHA! THE END! I flashed my pages to the end of the Navidon record, and did find a tiny dot, but nothing really to seeing any connection to Navy's current issue at the bottom of the staircase. Again I felt defeated. After going to get a drink of Jameson to relax I thought the big dot (Navy's time) and the little dot at the end (not sure about what it was about but was assuming just the end of the era of Navidson) were connected in that manner. I still didn't like it. It wasn't the end of the book itself technically, the appendices and exhibits and index and thats where I found the great tree Yggdrasil and what else.

That big fucking dot!

Now here is where I started going a little crazy with connections and ideas so try to hang in there please;
- The staircase grew once Reston was almost all the way up the middle leaving Navy alone. This is where I see the staircase/the maze linking to Yggdrasil because what did the staircase do - - "stands ten thousand feet high (although it was bigger than the 3 worlds in Norse mythlogy).

- "What miracle is this?" is simply the growth of the staircase. Why did it suddenly grow before his eyes? Before the house "moved" without a really being noticed persay, but now it was in plan sight. Why now? When Navy is alone? Well I will get to that later but lets continue...

-"It doesn't reach the ground" I wasn't totally sure about this but I dug around in my head but I came up with a couple ideas. 1) The tree (staircase) doesn't reach the ground because of the darkness around it. There were three wells of life in Norse mythology the tree went to, but I can really connect those, so I'm saying you can't see the bottom of the tree(staircase) because of the dark maze...which lead me to the other idea of the snake eatings its roots, Nidhogg, being the darkness or better yet, THE CREATURE/MINOTAUR! OooO I was getting excited now Well to continue quickly, I felt there never was a true "creature" but the creature was what you brought with you and it ate you up (Nidhogg eating the tree) and Navidson suddenly let his fear get the best of him and it did.

-"Its roots must hold the sky" meaning, in my remebereance of Norse mythology (not top of the line but I remember a bit) the roots were part of the worlds, and they technically held the worlds, thus held the sky. So this staircase bottom (roots) hold the top (great hall/the house and safety/ or in a sense Valhalla) What exactly I'm getting to I'm not sure... possibily, this may be a stretch, this is where I see Navy as Odin:
+Odin being lead of the god -> Navy being leader of these expeditions/leader of the family/the one behind it all
+Odin has only one eye -> Navy was always behind a camera lens, there is only one lens on a camera... one "eye"
+Odin seeked knowledge in the great tree and impaled himself in it for 9 days I think (getting a little rust on the mythology) -> Navy seeked knowledge of the hallway/staircase/maze and was in there for about 9 days (4 on his own after Reston went up and maybe about 5 with Tom and Reston on the rescue mission( can't really remember how long that was off hand))
+Odin become a new "god" with his knowledge and has a new name (sorry, can't remember what) -> Navy comes back and starts to move out and do thing differently.

I don't know if it all make sense, it did when I thought it. Just curious for any other views! Thanks!

[Ellimist]

I like you.

[blueyelie]

O, I forgot O!
O I feel is a couple things in regard to Navy, possibly the house, and as a (stretching far here) a footnote.

Navy in terms of the O -> Similar as stated before, Navy has "one eye" and that is a lens. This O could be similar to Navy situation that for once in his journeys through the world, he is going to be "open eyed". He doesn't have his camera. His doesn't have the ability to record anything. It is his "true" eye(s) that are going to leading the way up the stairs. He has to Open his eye... or on a funnier note; what if that O, linking to his situation was a type of text talk. Comapre this to Yggdrasil poem as if Navy was saying this:

The
s
t
a
i
r
c
a
s
e
How did this happen? The great staircase.
It grew even bigger than before
But I can't see the first step. Yet it is there
I must start to reach the top
Oh...

Like what if my footnote reference to Yggdrasil was Navy acutally talking! Thats what he said when he realized his prediciment. I don't know, just a thought

Now, I thought of the bottome O beinging where I began. Like another footnote. So where do I find footnote O or zero. I went to see footnote one, see if anything could be like a footnote 0 and there wasn't. (Wow when I acutally just typed 0 there, that looks more like the O in Yggdrasil than and O does). Then the pages number hit me. Page 0. Since TNR starts on page three technically, I went to page two; blank page, page one; the title, and then page 0, and blank page. Stay with me now, where else is there a blank white screen *coughpagecough*?
Exactly! Page 310, the blank white page that links us right back to the instance in which we started. Emptiness and nothing is what happend on tape (Navy's art eye), the O at the end of the poem is void of anything, emptyness, and if Navy's current state really leaves him nothing to work with but what is left in him, whcih is that big fucking dot!

Ok, my rambling got a little messed in there. Sorry, I will try to explain it later. Gotta leave for work! Thanks!

[noevilstar]

Yah Blue

I like the Odin=>Navy

I like it a lot

ps- O D I & N are all in Navidson... all but A V S

[Ellimist]

ODIN SAVs!

[noevilstar]

And let us not Forget Navy's 1st dream! (quickly refrence 398)
The dream describes Navy in a room where "the air reeks of rot (pg. 398)" -the roots of Ygg are said to be rotting.

"the trunk of the Tree is infected with some sort of rot"1

More Importanatly, Navy stands before a well that people jump into to determine there fate, and if they've been "good" a blue light takes them away. Obviously foreshadowing Navidsons final fall through the house.
In Norse Mythology, there are said to be three wells beneath yggdrasil.

" A gigantic root of the World Tree extends into each of the three levels, and a great well or spring lies beneath each root -- Hvergelmir in Niflheim, Mimir's Well in Jotunheim, and Urd's Well in Asgard. As we shall see later, Hvergelmir contains the water of creation, Mimir's Well the waterof wisdom, and Urd's Well the water of healing for the World Tree. "1

"Hvergelmir or "the roaring cauldron," the well from which all waters of the Nine Worlds flow and to which they ultimately return" 2

"At Mimir's well, which lay deep under the roots of Yggdrasil, the World Tree, the god had earlier chosen to undergo an important forfeit. Odin paid with one eye for a single drink of the enchanted water. His mouthful granted him wisdom and fore-sight. It is due to this sacrifice that Odin's face is depicted with a straight line indicating an empty eye, or alternately, in a wide-brimmed hat pulled down low over the missing orb"3

"Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to Fate...
The Well of Urd is the holy well, the Well Spring, the source of water for the world tree Yggdrasil...
The Well of Wyrd feeds the taproot of Yggdrasil the World Tree. It is guarded and tended by the three Norn, who dwell in a hall by the well. It is said that they scry the Bindrunes of Fate in the Well and carve them onto the living trunk of Yggdrasil" 2

I beleive this suggests that the house is in fact the well of Urd

pg. 398 pparaphrased "Navidson understands the logic of this place
1) he can remain in the room forever, or he can jump into the well
2) If he has led a good life, a blue light will visit him and take him to some gentle ethereal place. If he has live an inappropriate life, no light will visit him and he will fall forever."

well of urd= house?


1 http://www.stevenforrest.com/dag.html

2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyrd

3 http://www.octavia.net/vikings/odin.htm

[noevilstar]

The norns (Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_language): norn, plural: nornir) are a kind of dísir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%ADsir),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norn#_note-nordiskdis) numerous female beings who rule the fates of the various races of Norse mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology) (The Fates). An English tradition talks of the Weird Sisters, (sometimes Wyrd Sisters or Three Weird Sisters), where Wyrd is the English form of Urðr, one of the named norns, whose name means itself "fate".
According to Snorri Sturluson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson)'s interpretation of the Völuspá (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lusp%C3%A1), the three most important norns, Urðr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur%C3%B0r) (Wyrd), Verðandi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ver%C3%B0andi) and Skuld (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuld_%28Norn%29) come out from a hall standing at the Well of Urðr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Ur%C3%B0r) (well of fate) and they draw water from the well and take sand that lies around it, which they pour over the ash Yggdrasill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasill) so that its branches will not rot. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norn)

could these norns be charcters we know...could some of the charecters be modern day norns, keeping yggdrasil (the house of leaves) in balance??

I shall sleep on all this info...its a lot to take in

[noevilstar]

or leave it right side up, the solid dot is the black expanse of space, and ygg (meaning terrible) and drasil (meaning steed) being the roots of the word Yggdrasil are holding it up.


"as I dig for wild orchids
in the Autumn fields,
it is the deeply-bedded root
that I desire
not the flower."
Izumi Shikibu
(HoL pg. 650)

Just to the left of the black dot on the Ygg page - is the credit of this poem , taken from "The Ink Dark Moon"

...just thought that was interesting...

Ink dark moon seems to refrence that dot above yggdrasil, and the poem itself suggests ygg too

. . . ...sorry to fill this thread with my ramblings... . . .

[blueyelie]

ODIN SAVs!

:biggrin: I LOVE IT:biggrin:

[noevilstar]

If the house was a part/land of yggdrasil, which one would it be?

[blueyelie]

.. Good question.
I don't see it being Asgard. I could seeing it being Jotunheim due to it's mystery and wonder. But also it could simply by Midgard being land of the mortals because that is where the house is.

Or, that made my think. In Vodun there is a god, Legba that opens the crossroads for the gods to enter the mortal world. So that mortals can speak to the gods on an easier basis, or become a "horse" for the gods. Now there is another god, Kalfou that does just the opposide of Legba; he doesn't open the gates for the gods to the mortals, he opens the gates for the mortals to enter the gods. Basically a much more spiritual an unsafe journey.
You can also take this into account with the veve's which Legbas is simply a "cross road" with four cardinal points. Now Kalfou has the crossroads, but also has four snakes dividing each quadrant, signifying to be going off the beaten path, or the safe path.
Anywho, I was think of the house and the connection of which world would the house be a part of, and it made me think of Kalfou in the sense that what if the House was a conjunction of two worlds. Like, for lack of a better term, a "gatway" to the other worlds.

I'm trying to find such a thing in Nordic culture (only thing could be the rainbow bridge linking Asgard to Midgard) but to no avail.

[heartbreak]

I've actually thought on this a lot myself. Never had anything more then ideas and theories.

I think House of Leaves is the roots of Yggdrasil. There are references to all three wells in the book. Creation, wisdom and healing.

I think Only Revolutions represents Midgard. The J&#246;rmungandr resides there. A serpent biting its own tail. Which often represents infinity much like the way Only Revolutions loops around on itself.

I expect Mark's next major book might have correlation to the branches.

[blueyelie]

I'm guessing the next book would resemble the branches... but what exactly are the branches? My Nordic culture is a bit rusty, but I never remember the branches truly resembling something, other than where the deer at the leaves and the squirell scurried around. And also were the two people that survived Ragnarok lived. Hmm... maybe a book like Omega Man, but two people who survive feeding on others?

I felt the tree is more of the books. Such as that HoL is Midgard, or the place of mortals. I feel OR is a link to Asgard, due to the godly aspect of infinity dealing with Sam and Hailey. As for Hel, or Nifelhiem not sure. Maybe a third book, or maybe it links with T50YS or other stuff he has done. Yet to read those...

Some reason Yggdrasil haunts me in HoL. I'm not sure if it's a link, it is Yggdrasil, or what. And why Nordic culture does MZD pick of all? The pagan history? The fighting? The over...well... coolness?

[noevilstar]

I think House of Leaves is the roots of Yggdrasil. There are references to all three wells in the book. Creation, wisdom and healing

I'm on board with the roots theory. What refrences do you have for the wells. I think Navy's first dream, see above, suggests perhaps the halls are the roots leading to the well of urd, or perhaps are the well itself.

I also thought the three wells were Fate, Wisdom, and the "Seething Cauldron" that connects the eleven rivers, where Nidhoggr the root-nibbling dragon is. Perhaps Nidhoggr is infact the beast.

[aenema22]

I got my copy of the book used from a girl I used to see long ago, and I noticed upon reading it that she had scribbled a lot of things in the margins that confused me.

On page 709 running parallel to YGGDRASIL she wrote the words "How can I wake up?" I know from reading other pages that she is fluent in French (she translated entire blocks of French text in the margins) but as far as Yggdrasil I don't see the connection.

Maybe she shuffled the letters in order to make them spell something else? I'd ask her but I am no longer in contact with her. =/

[Magda]

This is to connect the Bachelard thread (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56342) with this Yggdrasil thread.



Sometimes we find ourselves in the presence of a form that guides and encloses our earliest dreams. For a painter, a tree is composed in its roundness. But the poet continues the dream from higher up. He knows that when a thing becomes isolated, it becomes round, it assumes a figure of being that is concentrated upon itself. In Rilkes Po&#232;mes fran&#231;ais, this is how the walnut tree lives and commends attention. Here again, around a lone tree, which is the centre of the world, the dome of the sky becomes round, in accordance with the rule of cosmic poetry.


Tree alwas in the center
Of all that surrounds it
Tree feasting upon
Heaven's great dome

Needless to say, all the poet sees, is a tree in a meadow [in the Rhone valley]: He is not thinking of the legendary Ygdrasil that would concentrate the entire cosmos, uniting heaven and earth. But the imagination of round being follows its own law: since, as the poet says, the walnut tree is “proudly rounded,” it can feast upon “heaven’s [Plural in French] great dome.” The world is around the round being.
And from Verse to verse, the poem grows, increases its being. The tree is alive, reflective, straining toward god.


You, as nobody else
turn everywhere
behaving like an apostle
who does not know, from where

God will appear to him
So, to be sure,
it develops itself in roundness
stretching towards Him its ripe arms

Tree that perhaps
Thinks innerly
Tree that dominates self
Slowly giving itself
The form that eliminates
Hazards of Wind.

I shall never find a better document for a phenomenology of a being which is at once established in its roundness and developing in it. Rilke’s tree propagates in green spheres a roundness that is a victory over accidents of form and capricious events of mobility. Here becoming has countless forms, countless leaves [mille feuilles], but being is subject to no dispersion: If I could ever succeed in grouping together all the images of being, all the multiple, changing images that, in spite of everything, illustrate permanence of being, Rilke's tree would open an important chapter in my album of concrete metaphysics.


I did not find the complete English translation of the poem. If somebody could provide me with the missing parts I will exchange them and thank so much. Thanks to heartbreak for some missing lines. Light blue text: my translation. Bold: my accentuation.

Edit: Ah yes. (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28949#post28949)

[noevilstar]

from Nietzsche's Epic of the Soul, T.K. Seung, pg. 120

The notion of ascent and descent is a platonic theme. Some commentators have said that Zarathustra's initial descent from his mountain cave is the reversal of Plato's allegory of the cave. Whereas the Platonic sage goes down to the cave, Zarathustra goes up to the cave. The location of the cave is reversed. Therefore the latter is the reversal of the former. But this only a misleading appearance. Both of them ascend for their enlightenment and descend to dispense their wisdom to the people. Zarathustra's cave is located on a high mountain; Plato's cave is located underground.The former is the locus of wisdom; the latter is the locus of ignorance. Zarathustra's cave serves the noetic function as the Platonic Heaven. He gains his wisdom in the cave high on the mountains just as the Platonic sage gains his wisdom in the Platonic Heaven of eternal Forms.

In Part II, however, Zarathustra did not gain his wisdom by ascending to a mountain cave. He gained it by descending to the underworld. He said that the penitent poets would gain their knowledge of reality by descending to the underworld. THis is truly a reversal of the Platonic scheme. In the regard, Part II is differently constructed from Part I. As we have seen, Part II consists of a series of descending moves, which finally reaches the darkest and lowest point in "The Stillest Hour" . In Part III, Zarathustra reverses his descent and begins his ascent. But his ascent is said to be inseparable from his descent because the depth sustains the height. In "On the Tree on the Mountaintop" of PArt I, Zarathustra counseled a young man that like a tree a human being can reach the height by sending the roots downward into the deep dark evil, that is, one's dee passions and instinctual forces. His talk of height and depth is psychological rather than geological. The inseparable connection between the height and the depth and between ascent and descent will be the central theme.

truth and Truth. two cargoes for any poet's sea voyage.

Should I have been the truant of transcription that Hollander was, I might have been wise here and taken a cue from Hollander, and replaced caves, with <a href="http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40641#post40641">care</a>. <font color=red><del>Of course, this is more of the kind of thing a novelist or a playwright would deal with, and as I am pointedly not a novelist or a playwright I will leave that tale to someone else</font></del>

[holistic]

Hey, I'm new here, sorry for the necro, I read the threads, I just registered to share my thoughts. I don't have the book with me, so sorry if I can't cite anything...but...

I think the staircase is Yggdrasil, literally.

At one point near the end, I think it's Zampano who says not to search in the sky, as there will be no answers there. When to dropped the coin it dropped too far to be contained inside Earth. What if it has a dual nature- it's almost like it is both below and leads to the sky, as said in the poem ("its roots [not branches] must hold the sky.") Beyond the bottom there is nothing, it leads to nowhere, unlike above the staircase. As for Nidhogg or the rest of the Ygdrasil metaphor I can't tell, but I thought it was an interesting thought.

[Nekopup]

With my first post on the forums (huzzah!), I'd like to point out a shred of evidence which seems to have gone overlooked. It was mentioned in the first post of this thread, but the idea was never revisited. Here's how I came upon this theory:

Some of my friends find it amusing to send impossible questions to that KGB texting service. If you haven't heard of it, you text them a question and they answer it for you (for $0.99). I thought of a question that would really stump them, and on a whim texted to them, "Is there truly a creature in the laybrinth inside Navidson's House in Mark Z. Danielewski's House of Leaves?" It took them a while to get back to me, and I thought I had stumped them, however I get a text saying simply, "The laybrinth and the book are the same. If the book is Yggdrasil, the creature must be the Nidhogg."



My hands resemble some ancient tree: the roots that bind up the earth, the rock, and the ceasely nibbling wordms.


The Nidhogg ate the roots of Yggdrasil, and P. eludes to this with the "ceaselessly nibbling wor[]ms": worm being a common synomym for a snake or a dragon around the time that these myths were created.

Consider also, changing that last word slightly: "ceaselessly nibbling word[]s" I believe that the Nidhogg, or the words, are destroying the roots of Yggdrasil, or the narrative. I will explain further:

Yggdrasil's roots reach into three wells. The first is the well of Wisdom, which I take to represent old man Z. I believe this not only because he is the oldest and supposedly the most wise of the narrators, but also because of the link between Odin losing his eye at this well and Zampano's blindness.

The second well is the well of Fate, which is fed by the past, present, and future. I take this well to represent Johnny, because of all of the characters, it is his past and present (even glimpses of his future) that are most revealed to us, it is to him that the story seems to be most strongly tied, and in Johnny's fate lies the fate of the narrative.

The last well, known as the "roarring kettle" supplies the rivers of the nine worlds. Similarly Pelafina weaves herself into both Johnny's world (most obviously) and Zampano's ("My dear Zampano, who did you lose?" as well as similarities between TWL, The P. poems (which Z has read), and many other subtle hints within Z's writings). Also, Pelafina erodes Johnny's world (maybe Zampano's?) like a river slowly eroding the earth on which it flows.*

These three wells, or narrators, feed Yggdrasil, or the story/book/narrative itself.

Now, to expand on the link between the worm (Nidhogg) and the words. The main thing weakening the story/book/narrative is the words themselves. This is because it is within the text that we find so many errors, undermining the legitimacy of the story/book/narrative, and weakening it considerably. Not only does the Nidhogg feed on the roots of Yggdrasil, but at the end of the world, the Nidhogg brings about the end of the ancient tree. Thus, the words/text eat away at the legitimacy of the story as it is presented, and once a story/book/narrative can not be trusted, it dies.


Yggdrasil -(eaten by/contains)- Nidhogg
=
Labrynth -(haunted by/contains)- Creature/Minotuar
=
House of Leaves [Z,P, and J's stories together] -(weakened by/contains)- it's own words

What do you all think?

*More ties between the Yggdrasil story and Pelafina that are unfinished ideas of mine. I don't know how to better support them as evidence, but they are just things to think about: The roots leading into the "Roaring Kettle" (which I linked to Pelafina) is where the Nidhogg spends most of his time (Pelafina is the main source for the lack of legitimacy? Pelafina = Nidhogg [in the respect that I envision P to be Johnny's monster/creature]?) Lastly, the Yggdrasil reference on the last page is typed in 'Dante'. Connection?

[heartbreak]

Welcome to the forums nekopup. Good post. I think its got some potential. Will have to ponder it more.

One thing I will note for you is that in Dante's Inferno there is an inverted tree. I've got the line references noted downstairs, but as I climbed 2000 staires today my legs are hurting pretty good, so when I finally make it down there tomorrow I will post up the references. (Thought I had posted it on the forums already, but can't find it now.)

Again, welcome.

Edit: Ended up going downstairs anyways. The reference is in Purgatorio rather. Canto XXII.

But soon the sweet converse was broken by a tree which we found in the midst of the way, with fruit wholesome and pleasant to smell. And even as a pine tree grows gradually less from bough to bough upwards, so did that downwards; I think so that none may go up.

[Short_Fuse]

If the roots hold the sky, then what are the branches grabbing? The Leaves of this book? The very pages of text within the binding that is Yggdrasil. Does the black house on the mirrored page have something to do with it?

[mafleeted]

but not even discussing the book, just in the story itself...

"F. R. Schröder has proposed a fourth etymology where yggdrasill means "yew pillar", deriving yggia from *igwja (meaning "yew-tree"), and drasill from *dher- (meaning "support")."

were that the case, and if yggdrasil was the labyrinth, then could that mean that the labyrinth supports the world?

of course if yggdrasil is not the labyrinth this whole thing holds no water but don't both go on forever?

[sukatrid2plymi]

Does anyone know if MZD has a religion? And what it is? Idk about this but has anyone considered that maybe the meaning behind Yggdrasil is that WE ARE Yggdrasil. The house responded to people's emotions or what they were feeling; what was on their mind. And the book also compares the house to the human mind. In Navidson's drunken letter to his wife, he may have come across the notion that the house was himself. He talks about how the god he believes in is no common god. The book talks about how the only thing in that place is what you carry with you = (maybe)You. Maybe the house, being "God", is us. Making us God, or the masters of our own destiny yada yada yada. Idk if MZD has a religion (as I've stated before) but if anything, this WOULD be a very Atheistic idea. Just fruit for thought. ;)

[fond illusions]

Bear with me if this has been covered in other threads, I've only been a member for a few days and haven't had time to catch up quite yet. And I'll admit I haven't finished my current reread of the book yet, so this is just a seedling of an idea--but I wanted to get it down before I forgot it.

On page 383, The Glossary includes several terms from the field of linguistics. I see similarities between several major themes/elements of the book (Yggdrasil of course being one of them) and X-bar theory in syntax. Simply put, x-bar theory states that sentences are made up of constituents that branch off of one another according to how certain principles and parameters in a language are set. What you get, if you map out even the simplest sentence, is a descending tree. Theoretically, this tree could go on branching off forever, but your sentence just wouldn't make any sense (I could get into the technical aspects of why this is but I think that would be waayyy too much of a tangent and way more syntactical theory than anyone wants to read about).
Also consider a quote from one of Pelafina's letters, which was part of a post in the beginning of this thread:

"My hands resembles some ancient tree: the roots that bind up the earth, the rock and the ceaselessly nibbling wordms."

Ceaselessly nibbling, endless words.
It's certainly something I'll keep in mind as I finish the book...what do you guys think?

[fond illusions]

Well, I found the D-Structure thread, so I'll spend some quality time over there to see how many times and in how many ways my ideas have already been brought up by some very smart and well-read people...but in the meantime, any comments/replies would be much appreciated!