Delial

[cloudsurfer]

Did anyone notice the importance of the name. Navidson never tells who she is until later on in the novel and only after damage has been done just by the mention of her name. Also note how delial sounds like denile, another of those echos I guess.

[kimlan]

Good insight! What did you get from her? besides being one of Navidson's true loves- his work, his art, ect...

[Sintina]

Whoa! Never thought of the denial thing.

A lot of the names in the book are like that. I mean, Lude... Crude...
Zampano... uh... Damp Mano?

Hee hee images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif I worry myself sometimes. But really, I always thought that a lot of people's names in the book slightly describe the characters.
Delial was the first tragic irony of Navidson's life. (the house being the second). She made him famous, but caused him heartache. Without her he might not have prospered as he did... but he would've been happier and clear headed. Another one of the parts of the book that makes us relate to our own lives and the choices we make.

If not for this... than... maybe...

20/20 hind-sight.

[Bok]

Talking about names: Just a few days ago, I accidentally discovered that the word Truant is used for someone who skips school, walks away from responsibilities, etc. I think this kind of fits Johnny!

[cloudsurfer]

Good obsevation Bok, I am sure that Mark put a lot more names in there like that, but the book is so complex that it is hard to find some of them. I also noticed the name thing occures a lot in the references and footnotes at the bottom of the pages. Some of the titles of the periodicles and such. I think that Delial was in a essence Navidson's tradgic love like Beatrice in Dante (with many references being made to her throughout the book). She also alienated Karen, because Karen thought that Navidson was unfaithful when he went out on those shoots. Also it is hinted that she never remained faithful to Navidson as it was, but still she gets jealous at the mention of a name??? Another thing, do you find it strange that they lived together so long and had kids, but never got married??

[kimlan]

Halloway------hallway

[cloudsurfer]

I was thinking that too.

[MicheleVR5]

There was a thought about the origin of Zampano's name posted to the p-o-e.com BBS. Paired with the followup, it's nice evidence of the theory that Johnny...hmm...well you decide images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Read the thread here (http://www.p-o-e.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000494.html).

[kimlan]

Expanding on the play of names-> did anyone else catch this?
In foot note 342, it talks about "the Deutsch Electron Synchrotron (DESY; pronounced "daisy")"

[Tempast33]

could Delial have been lost during the war when he was rescuing the people he received his medal for? forgive me if it talks about this later in the book i'm still reading it

[drone]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Lude... Crude...
Zampano... uh... Damp Mano? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Lewd" (pronounced Lude) is a word as well. It means crude and lecherous, if I recall correctly.

[jennifer may]

Hey I'd noticed these name things!

How about Thumper?
The Bambi character was so called because he thumped out warnings to others; Thumper in the book repeatedly tries to help Johnny.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this...

[MicheleVR5]

On WBRU yesterday, Mark and Poe were interviewed. Mark said "Everything in the book works in triplicate, so... There's no doubt I've been influenced by my sister listening to the song ["Angry Johnny"] all the time, but John is also John F. Kennedy, Dear John letters, it's a very important name."

Jennifer I don't think you're reading too much into it at all images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[jennifer may]

Well thank you MichelleVR5: and may I say it's nice to be referred to (as I'm new 'n all).

Here's another: Dr. Nowell - no-well - not well.

That one made me laugh....

[Winteredge]

Navidson ~ Navidad (spanish word for Christmas) & Son? Possibly related to navigation? Possibly Nav I.D. son?

There are so many possible interpretations to so many aspects of the book that attempting to determine why is difficult. I think that while such interpretations can occasionally lead to greater truths they rely on what the interpreter (the traveler through the maze of words) brings to it. In the end (not unlike the characters in the book) the maze is unique and personal. The answer, the path out is also unique and personal.

[cloudsurfer]

I also had another idea. Johnny's mom is names pelafina, which sounds rather close to pelican, like in the pelican poems. Any dieas?

[Inanna]

I always associated Lude's name with the drug. Aren't quaalude's downers? I'm pretty naive about drug stuff so please nobody laugh.

Was there a real picture of a child starving with a vulture swooping behind it? In the footnotes it mentions another one but I haven't had the time to check the source yet.

Irene

[gremlin]

I have a copy of the actual picture by Kevin Carter which "-ed" talks about on page 368, footnote #336. I came across it while looking through a magazine in my art teachers classroom, it was on a Save The Children ad, I had no clue it was the picure from the book, I only took it because it reminded me of Delial, I ripped it out and was staring at it and I noticed the name Kevin Carter and I looked it up in HOL and sure enough there it was. If anyone would like to see it reply or send me an e-mail (GremlinGuy76@aol.com) and I would be happy to send a picture.

[Jessie]

I have seen that photo and you will have nightmares for years...the photographer who won the Pulitzer for the photo also wrestled with his own nightmares...
It is ironic that numerous people involved in the research of the events that transpired in Marks "house" went on to commit suicide.
I found an article about the photographer Kevin Carter who took the actual Delial/vulture picture.
He comitted suicide 2 months after he won the Pulitzer.

http://www1.tip.nl/~t892660/msp/images/kcpic.gif

THE LIFE AND DEATH OF KEVIN CARTER Visiting Sudan, a little-known photographer took a picture that made the world weep. What happened afterward is a tragedy of another sort.

BY SCOTT MACLEOD/JOHANNESBURG
The image presaged no celebration: a child barely alive, a vulture so eager for carrion. Yet the photograph that epitomized Sudan's famine would win Kevin Carter fame - and hopes for anchoring a career spent hounding the news, free-lancing in war zones, waiting anxiously for assignments amid dire finances, staying in the line of fire for that one great picture. On May 23, 14 months after capturing that memorable scene, Carter walked up to the dais in the classical rotunda of Columbia University's Low Memorial Library and received the Pulitzer Prize for feature photography. The South African soaked up the attention. "I swear I got the most applause of anybody," Carter wrote back to his parents in Johannesburg. "I can't wait to show you the trophy. It is the most precious thing, and the highest acknowledgment of my work I could receive."

Carter was feted at some of the most fashionable spots in New York City. Restaurant patrons, overhearing his claim to fame, would come up and ask for his autograph. Photo editors at the major magazines wanted to meet the new hotshot, dressed in his black jeans and T shirts, with the tribal bracelets and diamond-stud earring, with the war-weary eyes and tales from the front lines of Nelson Mandela's new South Africa. Carter signed with Sygma, a prestigious picture agency representing 200 of the world's best photojournalists. "It can be a very glamorous business," says Sygma's U.S. director, Eliane Laffont. "It's very hard to make it, but Kevin is one of the few who really broke through. The pretty girls were falling for him, and everybody wanted to hear what he had to say."

There would be little time for that. Two months after receiving his Pulitzer, Carter would be dead of carbon-monoxide poisoning in Johannesburg, a suicide at 33. His red pickup truck was parked near a small river where he used to play as a child; a green garden hose attached to the vehicle's exhaust funneled the fumes inside. "I'm really, really sorry," he explained in a note left on the passenger seat beneath a knapsack. "The pain of life overrides the joy to the point that joy does not exist."

http://picturenet.co.za/photographers/kc/portrait.gif


How could a man who had moved so many people with his work end up a suicide so soon after his great triumph? The brief obituaries that appeared around the world suggested a morality tale about a person undone by the curse of fame. The details, however, show how fame was only the final, dramatic sting of a death foretold by Carter's personality, the pressure to be first where the action is, the fear that his pictures were never good enough, the existential lucidity that came to him from surviving violence again and again - and the drugs he used to banish that lucidity. If there is a paramount lesson to be drawn from Carter's meteoric rise and fall, it is that tragedy does not always have heroic dimensions. "I have always had it all at my feet," read the last words of his suicide note, "but being me just fit up anyway."

First, there was history. Kevin Carter was born in 1960, the year Nelson Mandela's African National Congress was outlawed. Descended from English immigrants, Carter was not part of the Afrikaner mainstream that ruled the country. Indeed, its ideology appalled him. Yet he was caught up in its historic misadventure.

His devoutly Roman Catholic parents, Jimmy and Roma, lived in Parkmore, a tree-lined Johannesburg suburb - and they accepted apartheid. Kevin, however, like many of his generation, soon began to question it openly. "The police used to go around arresting black people for not carrying their passes," his mother recalls. "They used to treat them very badly, and we felt unable to do anything about it. But Kevin got very angry about it. He used to have arguments with his father. "Why couldn't we do something about it? Why didn't we go shout at those police?' "

Though Carter insisted he loved his parents, he told his closest friends his childhood was unhappy. As a teenager, he found his thrills riding motorcycles and fantasized about becoming a race-car driver. After graduating from a Catholic boarding school in Pretoria in 1976, Carter studied pharmacy before dropping out with bad grades a year later. Without a student deferment, he was conscripted into the South African Defense Force, where he found upholding the apartheid regime loathsome. Once, after he took the side of a black mess-hall waiter, some Afrikaans-speaking soldiers called him a kaffir-boetie ("nigger lover") and beat him up. In 1980 Carter went absent without leave, rode a motorcycle to Durban and, calling himself David, became a disk jockey. He longed to see his family but felt too ashamed to return. One day after he lost his job, he swallowed scores of sleeping pills, pain-killers and rat poison. He survived. He returned to the S.A.D.F. to finish his service and was injured in 1983 while on guard duty at air force headquarters in Pretoria. A bomb attributed to the A.N.C. had exploded, killing 19 people. After leaving the service, Carter got a job at a camera supply shop and drifted into journalism, first as a weekend sports photographer for the Johannesburg Sunday Express. When riots began sweeping the black townships in 1984, Carter moved to the Johannesburg Star and aligned himself with the crop of young, white photojournalists who wanted to expose the brutality of apartheid - a mission that had once been the almost exclusive calling of South Africa's black photographers. "They put themselves in face of danger, were arrested numerous times, but never quit. They literally were willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believed in," says American photojournalist James Nachtwey, who frequently worked with Carter and his friends. By 1990, civil war was raging between Mandela's A.N.C. and the Zulu-supported Inkatha Freedom Party. For whites, it became potentially fatal to work the townships alone. To diminish the dangers, Carter hooked up with three friends - Ken Oosterbroek of the Star and free-lancers Greg Marinovich and Joao Silva - and they began moving through Soweto and Tokoza at dawn. If a murderous gang was going to shoot up a bus, throw someone off a train or cut up somebody on the street, it was most likely to happen as township dwellers began their journeys to work in the soft, shadowy light of an African morning. The four became so well known for capturing the violence that Living, a Johannesburg magazine, dubbed them "the Bang-Bang Club."

Even with the teamwork, however, cruising the townships was often a perilous affair. Well-armed government security forces used excessive firepower. The chaotic hand-to-hand street fighting between black factions involved AK-47s, spears and axes. "At a funeral some mourners caught one guy, hacked him, shot him, ran over him with a car and set him on fire," says Silva, describing a typical encounter. "My first photo showed this guy on the ground as the crowd told him they were going to kill him. We were lucky to get away."

Sometimes it took more than a camera and camaraderie to get through the work. Marijuana, known locally as dagga, is widely available in South Africa. Carter and many other photojournalists smoked it habitually in the townships, partly to relieve tension and partly to bond with gun-toting street warriors. Although he denied it, Carter, like many hard-core dagga users, moved on to something more dangerous: smoking the "white pipe," a mixture of dagga and Mandrax, a banned tranquilizer containing methaqualone. It provides an intense, immediate kick and then allows the user to mellow out for an hour or two.

By 1991, working on the dawn patrol had paid off for one of the Bang-Bang Club. Marinovich won a Pulitzer for his September 1990 photographs of a Zulu being stabbed to death by A.N.C. supporters. That prize raised the stakes for the rest of the club - especially Carter. And for Carter other comparisons cropped up. Though Oosterbroek was his best friend, they were, according to Nachtwey, "like the polarities of personality types. Ken was the successful photographer with the loving wife. His life was in order." Carter had bounced from romance to romance, fathering a daughter out of wedlock. In 1993 Carter headed north of the border with Silva to photograph the rebel movement in famine-stricken Sudan. To make the trip, Carter had taken a leave from the Weekly Mail and borrowed money for the air fare. Immediately after their plane touched down in the village of Ayod, Carter began snapping photos of famine victims. Seeking relief from the sight of masses of people starving to death, he wandered into the open bush. He heard a soft, high-pitched whimpering and saw a tiny girl trying to make her way to the feeding center. As he crouched to photograph her, a vulture landed in view. Careful not to disturb the bird, he positioned himself for the best possible image. He would later say he waited about 20 minutes, hoping the vulture would spread its wings. It did not, and after he took his photographs, he chased the bird away and watched as the little girl resumed her struggle. Afterward he sat under a tree, lit a cigarette, talked to God and cried. "He was depressed afterward," Silva recalls. "He kept saying he wanted to hug his daughter."

After another day in Sudan, Carter returned to Johannesburg. Coincidentally, the New York Times, which was looking for pictures of Sudan, bought his photograph and ran it on March 26, 1993. The picture immediately became an icon of Africa's anguish. Hundreds of people wrote and called the Times asking what had happened to the child (the paper reported that it was not known whether she reached the feeding center); and papers around the world reproduced the photo. Friends and colleagues complimented Carter on his feat. His self-confidence climbed.

Carter quit the Weekly Mail and became a free-lance photojournalist - an alluring but financially risky way of making a living, providing no job security, no health insurance and no death benefits. He eventually signed up with the Reuter news agency for a guarantee of roughly $2,000 a month and began to lay plans for covering his country's first multiracial elections in April. The next few weeks, however, would bring depression and self-doubt, only momentarily interrupted by triumph.

The troubles started on March 11. Carter was covering the unsuccessful invasion of Bophuthatswana by white right-wing vigilantes intent on propping up a black homeland, a showcase of apartheid. Carter found himself just feet away from the summary execution of right-wingers by a black "Bop" policeman. "Lying in the middle of the gunfight," he said, "I was wondering about which millisecond next I was going to die, about putting something on film they could use as my last picture."

His pictures would eventually be splashed across front pages around the world, but he came away from the scene in a funk. First, there was the horror of having witnessed murder. Perhaps as importantly, while a few colleagues had framed the scene perfectly, Carter was reloading his camera with film just as the executions took place. "I knew I had missed this f--- shot," he said subsequently. "I drank a bottle of bourbon that night."

At the same time, he seemed to be stepping up his drug habit, including smoking the white pipe. A week after the Bop executions, he was seen staggering around while on assignment at a Mandela rally in Johannesburg. Later he crashed his car into a suburban house and was thrown in jail for 10 hours on suspicion of drunken driving. His superior at Reuter was furious at having to go to the police station to recover Carter's film of the Mandela event. Carter's girlfriend, Kathy Davidson, a schoolteacher, was even more upset. Drugs had become a growing issue in their one-year relationship. Over Easter, she asked Carter to move out until he cleaned up his life.

With only weeks to go before the elections, Carter's job at Reuter was shaky, his love life was in jeopardy and he was scrambling to find a new place to live. And then, on April 12, 1994, the New York Times phoned to tell him he had won the Pulitzer. As jubilant Times foreign picture editor Nancy Buirski gave him the news, Carter found himself rambling on about his personal problems. "Kevin!" she interrupted, "You've just won a Pulitzer! These things aren't going to be that important now."

Early on Monday, April 18, the Bang-Bang Club headed out to Tokoza township, 10 miles from downtown Johannesburg, to cover an outbreak of violence. Shortly before noon, with the sun too bright for taking good pictures, Carter returned to the city. Then on the radio he heard that his best friend, Oosterbroek, had been killed in Tokoza. Marinovich had been gravely wounded. Oosterbroek's death devastated Carter, and he returned to work in Tokoza the next day, even though the violence had escalated. He later told friends that he and not Ken "should have taken the bullet."

New York was a respite. By all accounts, Carter made the most of his first visit to Manhattan. The Times flew him in and put him up at the Marriott Marquis just off Times Square. His spirits soaring, he took to calling New York "my town."

With the Pulitzer, however, he had to deal not only with acclaim but also with the critical focus that comes with fame. Some journalists in South Africa called his prize a "fluke," alleging that he had somehow set up the tableau. Others questioned his ethics. "The man adjusting his lens to take just the right frame of her suffering," said the St. Petersburg (Florida) Times, "might just as well be a predator, another vulture on the scene." Even some of Carter's friends wondered aloud why he had not helped the girl.

Carter was painfully aware of the photojournalist's dilemma. "I had to think visually," he said once, describing a shoot-out. "I am zooming in on a tight shot of the dead guy and a splash of red. Going into his khaki uniform in a pool of blood in the sand. The dead man's face is slightly gray. You are making a visual here. But inside something is screaming, "My God.' But it is time to work. Deal with the rest later. If you can't do it, get out of the game." Says Nachtwey, "Every photographer who has been involved in these stories has been affected. You become changed forever. Nobody does this kind of work to make themselves feel good. It is very hard to continue."

Carter did not look forward to going home. Summer was just beginning in New York, but late June was still winter in South Africa, and Carter became depressed almost as soon as he got off the plane. "Joburg is dry and brown and cold and dead, and so damn full of bad memories and absent friends," he wrote in a letter never mailed to a friend, Esquire picture editor Marianne Butler in New York.

Nevertheless, Carter carefully listed story ideas and faxed some of them off to Sygma. Work did not proceed smoothly. Though it was not his fault, Carter felt guilty when a bureaucratic foul-up caused the cancellation of an interview by a writer from Parade magazine, a Sygma client, with Mandela in Cape Town. Then came an even more unpleasant experience. Sygma told Carter to stay in Cape Town and cover French President Francois Mitterrand's state visit to South Africa. The story was spot news, but according to editors at Sygma's Paris office, Carter shipped his film too late to be of use. In any case, they complained, the quality of the photos was too poor to offer to Sygma's clients.

According to friends, Carter began talking openly about suicide. Part of his anxiety was over the Mitterrand assignment. But mostly he seemed worried about money and making ends meet. When an assignment in Mozambique for TIME came his way, he eagerly accepted. Despite setting three alarm clocks to make his early-morning flight on July 20, he missed the plane. Furthermore, after six days in Mozambique, he walked off his return flight to Johannesburg, leaving a package of undeveloped film on his seat. He realized his mistake when he arrived at a friend's house. He raced back to the airport but failed to turn up anything. Carter was distraught and returned to the friend's house in the morning, threatening to smoke a white pipe and gas himself to death.

Carter and a friend, Judith Matloff, 36, an American correspondent for Reuter, dined on Mozambican prawns he had brought back. He was apparently too ashamed to tell her about the lost film. Instead they discussed their futures. Carter proposed forming a writer-photographer free-lance team and traveling Africa together.

On the morning of Wednesday, July 27, the last day of his life, Carter appeared cheerful. He remained in bed until nearly noon and then went to drop off a picture that had been requested by the Weekly Mail. In the paper's newsroom, he poured out his anguish to former colleagues, one of whom gave him the number of a therapist and urged him to phone her.

The last person to see Carter alive, it seems, was Oosterbroek's widow, Monica. As night fell, Carter turned up unannounced at her home to vent his troubles. Still recovering from her husband's death three months earlier, she was in little condition to offer counsel. They parted at about 5:30 p.m.

The Braamfonteinspruit is a small river that cuts southward through Johannesburg's northern suburbs - and through Parkmore, where the Carters once lived. At around 9 p.m., Kevin Carter backed his red Nissan pickup truck against a blue gum tree at the Field and Study Center. He had played there often as a little boy. The Sandton Bird Club was having its monthly meeting there, but nobody saw Carter as he used silver gaffer tape to attach a garden hose to the exhaust pipe and run it to the passenger-side window. Wearing unwashed Lee jeans and an Esquire T shirt, he got in and switched on the engine. Then he put music on his Walkman and lay over on his side, using the knapsack as a pillow.

The suicide note he left behind is a litany of nightmares and dark visions, a clutching attempt at autobiography, self-analysis, explanation, excuse. After coming home from New York, he wrote, he was "depressed . . . without phone . . . money for rent . . . money for child support . . . money for debts . . . money!!! . . . I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain . . . of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners . . . " And then this: "I have gone to join Ken if I am that lucky."

[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: Jessie ]

[Haye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"the fear that his pictures were never good enough, the existential lucidity that came to him from surviving violence again and again - and the drugs he used to banish that lucidity."
Notice the similarity between the word lucidity, the meaning of this word in the life of Carter and the name Lude?

[Haye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Though Carter insisted he loved his parents, he told his closest friends his childhood was unhappy. As a teenager, he found his thrills riding motorcycles and fantasized about becoming a race-car driver.
And who died from a motor accident in the book?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
One day after he lost his job, he swallowed scores of sleeping pills, pain-killers and rat poison. He survived.
Another reference to Lude....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"I knew I had missed this f--- shot," he said subsequently. "I drank a bottle of bourbon that night." Notice that the only drink Tom drinks is bourbon...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"The man adjusting his lens to take just the right frame of her suffering," said the St. Petersburg (Florida) Times, "might just as well be a predator, another vulture on the scene." In the book Navidson also fights with these thoughts.

I think the story about Carter inspired Mark Z. for a great deal.

[jlambert]

Sorry if this has already been discussed...

I looked up Kyrie this morning in the dictionary and it is "a religious prayer generally beginning with 'Lord have mercy.'"

I'm not sure what this has to do with Kyrie in the book but is seemed important.

[miharu]

Well, in another post of mine, I kinda discovered that Kyrie can be short for Valkyrie, chooser of the slain. I came across this while posting a bit of information about the legend and explaination of Yggdrasil. You can read the post here (http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000171).

-miharu

[kadylady]

Okay so did you guys notice that Kevin Carter's girlfriend was Kathy DAVIDSON? That's one down...a million questions to go.
Anyway, what an awesome/depressing article full of answers. Thanks, Jessie images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[wallacebcm]

Obviously the story of Samson and "Delilah" in the Bible factors into this! I'm sure that's been brought up before.

Brian

[monkey]

In another thread, someone referred to typos multiplying the meaning of a word...

Delial could be a combination of Belial (a devil, fiend, or fallen angel) and Denial. Evocative enough for Navidson's guilt.

[frozentruth]

Here's a link to the photo: http://pdn-pix.alchemedia.com/largepages/03_kevin_carter.html

[Aloysius]

I always associated Johnny's name with Johnny Rotten (sex pistols) or maybe Sid Vicous it just seems to be very much in the same vein.

[Aloysius]

Delial is also the brand name of a suntan lotion.
The word is connected to Delios which is and island connected to Greek mythology, particularly Apollo, but I am not entirely sure of the details.
However the word Delial definately has connections with the sun and light.

http://www.delial.de/index.asp?sid=7D7F0De7E04bA3x34510Ds60q1A

[BlackWidow]

I always thought it was pretty interesting that Navidson was often called "Navy". It seemed like he was constantly at war. In addition, he was in the service in one way or another, wasn't he? I can't find a quote as of right now...

Then there's the Navy vs. Marine Man thing...and then there's the Whale, and a billion other sea navigation references (ie the cover icon)...I could go on, but I'm sure I'll have more to say after my next re-read.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Winteredge:
Navidson ~ Navidad (spanish word for Christmas) & Son? Possibly related to navigation? Possibly Nav I.D. son?

There are so many possible interpretations to so many aspects of the book that attempting to determine why is difficult. I think that while such interpretations can occasionally lead to greater truths they rely on what the interpreter (the traveler through the maze of words) brings to it. In the end (not unlike the characters in the book) the maze is unique and personal. The answer, the path out is also unique and personal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[invisibleman]

the lewd and lude were always amusing to me.

when i think of lude i think of a lude act...

http://www.members.aol.com/deadguylsd/newer.gif (http://www.geocities.com/invisiblegod2000/valentine.html)

[ September 03, 2001: Message edited by: invisibleman ]

[hitme]

how's it hangin' everybody? I'm on a posting-frenzy . . . probly not an uncommon reaction for those excited neophytes just bursting and thirsthing, with and for, curiosity about this newfound strange book.
I'm just glad I'm not the post-partum type, where I'll go on a kill-crazy frenzy(of books, mind you), and drown my beloved books in the tub.
Naww, screw that! I'm not from Houston.
Or Georgia. (o shit, this just planted the funniest image in me noodle with somber NBC news coverage of forensics teams digging up old books in the crawlspace of some 'madpersons' suburban home ..."to date [in a somber prime-time news voice], the Sheriff's department has found the bodies of two dozen unidentified titles. Neighbors didn't suspect a thing and never complained of strange odors that one would expect from rotting text. . . And so on . . . )

Sorry, call me Tangential Timothy.

The initial purpose of this post was to descry the whole Delial/Denial bit beacuase it just seemed so very cheesy, in a psychobabble sense. But as I'm burning and dodging through the text for a second time, there's a couple of things which, admittedly and reluctantly, draw me towards Jeff's theory that Delial could somehow segue into denial. Or that Perafina can be solidly connected to Pelican.

on page 45 Z points out a typographical error in a Hollander's translation of a poem in which 'the the sky's blue caRe reborn' morphs into 'the sky's blue caVe reborn.

Another 'typo' in my edition is on page 31 where the Navidson report says 'morning paper (with a footnote #36) and the footnote says, "Easily that whole bit from 'coffee arcing tragically' down to 'the mourning paper . . . " (that is MOURNING not MORNING - a Freudian slip on paper could be?)

And then on page 16, in JT's first footnoted ramble, he addresses the reader really defensively (as though he might have something to hide) and poetically says about altering Z's material . .

"Now there's an admision, eh?"
"Hey, not fair, you cry."
"Hey, hey. Fuck you I say."

There ya go. Three examples of different voices all admitting, basically that they aren't responsible for any incosistancies. By that right, anything is possible and everybody gets off with impunity.

If the author lets himself off the hook, than why shouldn't the reader allow themselves the same privelage?

In that light, Delial vs. denial ain't all that implausible.

Oh my god! I just realized that this book is suggesting that there is no authorial authority and therefore anything is possible. What an immoral creation.

So sorry folks, but this book violates my innate values of right and wrong. I must go to Church now.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: iamfine ]

[dshepard]

Kyrie -- Greek for "Lord" as in "God."
This isn't as obscure as it seems; it's common enough in the Catholic Church to sing the "Lord Have Mercy" in Greek, which would be:

Kyrie, eleison (Lord have mercy)
Christe, eleison (Christ have mercy)
Kyrie, eleison.

Interstingly enough:
Kyrie speaks Latin, which the Catholic Church writes most of its documents in, and used to hold services in until the Second Vatican Council about 50 years ago.

[calhol]

If somehow Christmas Son is correct, wouldn't that mean Jesus? If the house IS God not his house but God, doesn't it all make sacreligious sense?

[blueskeyes]

One of the people who did a remix of
"Hey Pretty" is named Nevins. Just thought it was interesting. images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ninziestar]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sintina:

Delial was the first tragic irony of Navidson's life. (the house being the second). She made him famous, but caused him heartache.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is possible this was a reason Navidson resisted calling up reporters and news camera anchors. Publicity had already hurt him once, it wasn't going to happen again

*starts pulling hair, this man is a genious*

[Stencil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ninziestar:


It is possible this was a reason Navidson resisted calling up reporters and news camera anchors. Publicity had already hurt him once, it wasn't going to happen again

*starts pulling hair, this man is a genious*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this makes a lot of sense. Or perhaps he wanted to, in some way, be more involved, be more injured by the subject of his gaze, in order to show he wasn't just a vulture.

[immortaldead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jennifer may:
Well thank you MichelleVR5: and may I say it's nice to be referred to (as I'm new 'n all).

Here's another: Dr. Nowell - no-well - not well.

That one made me laugh....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's my last name, thankyou. there are several pronunciations of this name one is like Powell but with an n (this is how my family pronounces it)As in "Now Well". This, I've been told is the corret pronunciation. The one I hear most often is noel. As in the christmas song, this is were the name Nowell stems from, meaning christs song, or song of god. but this could also be seen as "know well".
Another connection to the name is a british climbing moss, a very rare moss in england that i read somewhere actually grows a kind of fruit. Maybe even Brad Nowell from Sublime, doubt he would be naming a doc after a heroine addict (a heroine addict that rocked ass on guitar).

[MoleculaRR]

This may be mentioned elsewhere, but seems worth adding to the thread on the topic of names and mispellings, etc.

In chapter XIII where, among other things, Holloway goes missing, Holloway's name appears as "Hol[ ]y" which makes his name into several more puns etc. (pointed out to me by a student):

-- Holy (sacred, wholly, hole-y, holie)
-- missing part, lowa, reversed = AWOL.

Also, Lude = play as in ludology = study of play.

[JuggaloStatix]

something similar to delial you may all be interested in just came up...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/13/worldpress.photo.ap/index.html

[JuggaloStatix]

hello...someone read this thread...lol its a good article...and its relevent...

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Statix:
hello...someone read this thread...lol its a good article...and its relevent...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, yes - I read the article, even though I should be writing. Its interesting, but I still don't think that image is as powerful as "Delial", or rather the Carter photo upon which it is based.

[JuggaloStatix]

but it was a good article

[fatwoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Statix:
but it was a good article<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not denying that, Statix, and I wasn't attempting to derail the connection - I just think Carter's picture is more striking and emotional. images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[JuggaloStatix]

of course it is...but still...i was bored as hell yesterday...and it was the only viable option...

[Gardai]

As for names, It's also worth noting, I think, that embedded within 'Navidson' is 'vid'-- the Latin root for vision, the sense that was Navidson's passion.

[ February 17, 2004: Message edited by: Gardai ]

[fearful_syzygy]

Ooh, one tried to sneak in the back way!

You might want to have a look at this thread (http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000325)

And while you're at it, you might want to take a gander at Stencil's list of useful threads for those new to this site (http://www.houseofleaves.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001973).

Welcome aboard.

[Bender]

Nothing to see here, move along.

[ninziestar]

Navidson - Navidad
Chrsitmas - Christ??


eh.. I don't even know if I really buy that one myself, either

[doomsoldier]

Delial.

Allied.

All Die.


I'm not quite sure if there's something to be made of that.

[msussman]

Nobody's posted to this thread for a while, so I don't know if anyone will see this, BUT...

There is an ancient (like ancient Greeks ancient) problem in geometry called the Delian Cube. I don't know much about math, but it has something to do with the impossibility of squaring a cube, meaning multiplying each of its dimensions by itself and still coming up with a cube. Apparently you can't do it. I don't even know if that's the correct way to formulate the problem, but the point is that it exposes a sort of kink in the foundations of geometry, much the same way as HoL presents a (rather large) kink in physics. If Delial is, then, a reference to the Delian cube it could play into the books thematics by virtue of its a) existence despite its denial of logic and rationality, and b) its ancientness.

Anyways, I thought it was cool. This is my first post, by the way.

[adamlll]

I looked up "delial" in the OED and the closest thing I got was an entry for this ancient geometric paradox. The following is a description, which I think eerily resonates with certain dynamics of the house (I just realized msussman posted on this issue as well... consider this an expansion):

Cube duplication, also called the Delian problem, is one of the geometric problems of antiquity which asks, given the length of an edge of a cube, that a second cube be constructed having double the volume of the first. The only tools allowed for the construction are the classic (unmarked) straightedge and compass.

The problem appears in a Greek legend which tells how the Athenians, suffering under a plague, sought guidance from the Oracle at Delos as to how the gods could be appeased and the plague ended. The Oracle advised doubling the size of the altar to the god Apollo. The Athenians therefore built a new alter twice as big as the original in each direction and, like the original, cubical in shape (Wells, 1986, p. 33). However, as the Oracle (notorious for ambiguity and double-speaking in his prophecies) had advised doubling the size (i.e., volume), not linear dimension (i.e., scale), the new altar was actually eight times as big as the old one. As a result, the gods remained unappeased and the plague continued to spread unabated. The reasons for the dissatisfaction of the gods under these circumstances is not entirely clear, especially since eight times the volume of original altar was a factor of four greater than actually requesting. It can therefore only be assumed that Greek gods were unusually ticklish on the subject of "altar"-ations being performed to their exact specifications.

Under these restrictions, the problem cannot be solved because the Delian constant (the required ratio of sides of the original cube and that to be constructed) is not a Euclidean number. However, the impossibility of the construction required nearly 2000 years, with the first proof constructed by Descartes in 1637. The problem can be solved, however, using a Neusis construction.

I got this from http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CubeDuplication.html

Considering the impossible dimensions of the house on Ash Tree, this mathematical quandary seems particularly apropos. But why does Navidson's photo/guilt complex/Sudanese girl Delial overlap so closely with this math problem? Is there an ethical dimension to the house? More likely, it has to do with irrationality per se, with our confrontation with irrationality and our various responses to it (which possibly overlaps with ethics broadly speaking).

[julie]

delial is also a brand of sunscreen i think

[Areopagus]

Ran across this today when I was looking at the fear and trembling passage of Philippians 2:12 and the word eulabeia. On a spectrum, eulabeia relates to the reverence aspect of fear while the word deilia means "fearful, timid, Cowardice, reticence, fearfulness..." (phobos lies in between the two). The connexion is rather obvious I think between Navidson's deilia and Navidson's Delial.

[po-m]

Delila-the biblical woman who stole Sampson's strength by cutting his hair...I don't know.

[sutrix]

Delila-the biblical woman who stole Sampson's strength by cutting his hair...I don't know.

Wasn't that Sam<strike>p</strike>son?

[po-m]

Wasn't that Sampson?
Sure. It's been about ten years since I last read the bible. I thought I remembered a "p", but I'm probably wrong. Why? Is that significant in some way?

[sutrix]

Wasn't that Sampson?
Sure. It's been about ten years since I last read the bible. I thought I remembered a "p", but I'm probably wrong. Why? Is that significant in some way?

Learn to quote right, dammit! The p in Sampson was struck in my post. Like this: <strike>p</strike>.

Do you retype text when you quote? Don't you know how to use the quote button?

See, it's Samson. I checked. However, are there any significant characters in any myth called Sampson? Because as everyone and his puppy knows, p is a very significant initial in the book. So if p is missing... yeah.

[fearful_syzygy]

Or it could be his lesser known twin brother. Like Thomson and Thompson in the Tintin books. ;)

[po-m]

Learn to quote right, dammit! The p in Sampson was struck in my post. Like this: p.

Do you retype text when you quote? Don't you know how to use the quote button?

See, it's Samson. I checked. However, are there any significant characters in any myth called Sampson? Because as everyone and his puppy knows, p is a very significant initial in the book. So if p is missing... yeah.

Wow. How very Fatwoul of you, being a royal ass for no particular reason. I did use the quote button. Just because "P" is significant in the book doesn't give it meaning in a random spelling error that I made. And it really doesn't make a bloody difference if the strike was carried over or not. I knew what you said and responded. Chill out.

[Nash]

W ... H ... at ... a royal ass ... I ... a ... m

You're right. It makes no difference.

Sampson, typo for son of a sampleton ?

BTW, in french, it is Samson and Dalila (And it is "Dupont" and "Dupond". ;) ). But I prefer pwhite's idea : Delial as an anagram of "L'idéal".

[sutrix]

I did use the quote button.

Oh yeah? Where the fuck did the HTML code for strikethrough go, then? And you also did it in the last post. Are you telling me you've screwed with your settings? Try unchecking Disable HTML in your profile. Might help. If not then you're doing something wrong.

And in a book where Holloways echoes hallways echoes always echoes your mum, a missing P, especially because of its obvious Whalestoe connection, is worth exploring (have you thought about echoes, or the sort of thing f_s just talked about?). Everything is; and it's discounting something as obviously unimportant that is stupid. Chill out.

And Nash: Sampson - sample son? As in an example of a son?

And of course, Simpsons?

[Nash]

And Nash: Sampson - sample son? As in an example of a son?

It was just an unclear way to say that po-m would have written Sampson instead of Samson because of the Simpsons (name which comes from "son of a simpleton").

[sutrix]

Simpsons.

Heh, I just mentioned that up above.

There really hasn't been a good discussion about the Simpsons here, you know.

[Nash]

There really hasn't been a good discussion about the Simpsons here, you know.

Maybe with Babelfish, you can understand this thread (http://houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4029) and add your thought, (even in English).

[fearful_syzygy]

Incidentally, I've been wondering recently how everyone pronounces 'Delial'.
I've always put the stress on the first syllable, and pronounced it /'di:li:æl/, whereas a friend of mine who read it said they'd always put the stress on the second syllable and pronounced it /dI'laI(ə)l/.
So which is it?

[sutrix]

Incidentally, I've been wondering recently how everyone pronounces 'Delial'.
I've always put the stress on the first syllable, and pronounced it /'di:li:æl/, whereas a friend of mine who read it said they'd always put the stress on the second syllable and pronounced it /dI'laI(ə)l/.
So which is it?

I pronounce it as Day-lie-l.

[Raminagrobis]

I've always put the stress on the first syllable, and pronounced it /'di:li:æl/

Me too. It seemed natural to pronounce it by analogy to 'Delia' or 'Delian'. Your friend seems to be pronouncing it after 'Delilah', which had never occured to me I must say. As for yours, sutrix... :?

[fearful_syzygy]

Your friend seems to be pronouncing it after 'Delilah', which had never occured to me I must say.
Or like 'denial'.

[Raminagrobis]

I hardly think that's very likely. No. Not at all. =; [-X

[sutrix]

Your friend seems to be pronouncing it after 'Delilah', which had never occured to me I must say.
Or like 'denial'.

Yes, that's almost how I pronounce it, except instead of den (as in djinn) I pronounce is as day, like I said.

What's confusing, Grobie? :?

[Ellimist]

DEE-lee-uhl

[po-m]

Oh yeah? Where the fuck did the HTML code for strikethrough go, then? Are you telling me you've screwed with your settings?

And in a book where Holloways echoes hallways echoes always echoes your mum, a missing P, especially because of its obvious Whalestoe connection, is worth exploring. Everything is; and it's discounting something as obviously unimportant that is stupid. Chill out.

First of all, I don't appreciate you getting all angry and bitter on me out of the blue. Secondly, the P wasn't missing from the book. It was from my brain. I might as well have mentioned that I was sitting in my house writing this. :roll:
One minute, you're convinced that everything is in code, the next you're preaching about looking too deeply into things. Of course you're going to jump on me now for not lending some dire importance to a typo. As for my quoting, I'm not here to appease you. Go try and yell at Kittee and Shanks for their constant errors. See what they say.
Seriously, take five minutes, drink a cup of Earl Grey, maybe do some yoga, and come back when you're ready to be rational.

[sutrix]

You just don't get it, do you? :roll:

Nash, I'll try Babelfish. And then perhaps I could continue the discussion in the English side of the forum? If that's okay with you.

[po-m]

Nope. I'm utterly hopeless. Buh-bye!

[deceptacon]

i might be reading into this waaaay too much, but i always related wax to the story of icarus (you know the whole wax wings thing).
i dont know, it just seems that wax is a lot like icarus, a young cocky kid who has seen many triumphs in the past, yet when placed in an uncanny (YES!) environment, loses all advantages.
i think that came out horribly, but hopefully everyone knows what i'm trying to convey.

[Ellimist]

i think that came out horribly, but hopefully everyone knows what i'm trying to convey.
Sure, why not?

Welcome to the forums. You will find a wealth of information nestled within my signature. Enjoy.

[fearful_syzygy]

Watching Nosferatu last night I suddently realised that I've been pronouncing Delial on the model of Belial all along.

This is a possibility suggested by monkey on p. 2 of this thread and elsewhere on the board.

[sutrix]

And I'm still pronouncing it on the model of denial.

[Ellimist]

...

"DEE-lee-uhl"

[fearful_syzygy]

Yeah thanks.

[Ellimist]

Yeah thanks.
No problem, man!

[Vengro]

With a background in several languages, I have a tendency to pronounce names with less of an American accent (?).* Consequently, for me, "Delial" was/is "Deh-lah-ee-ahl" much like "Belial" from the film Basket Case, (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083624/) but with a "D" in front instead of a "B." Of course, this didn't stop me from occasionally alternating the pronunciation with "Deh-lee-ahl" because I have a tendency to mispronounce things. (When I say "pronounce" I'm referring to within my mind, not out loud.)

And just so this comment is not entirely unsubstantial, Delial holds some resonance of "delineate" = to represent pictorally. Delial is a picture, and obviously a representation, although she is in some ways like the blue of the house. Fill in at your leisure.

If we do go with words that merely sound similar (Halloway = hallway = the game that Daisy brings up but which the cameras are unable to hear correctly) "Belial" and Delial" are similar. "Belial" as a name originates from the Old Testament. (Deut. 13:13) Wickeness; ungodliness; evil.

I will stop here before I start rehashing what other people have said before me. I am still new to the site and still catching up. Pardon me.

*Note: This shouldn't be read as an insult, seeing as I am an American myself. We do tend to pronounce things weirdly.

[modiFIed]

Aye, L. - delineatus, pp of delineare, to mark out or sketch. Makes sense, especially given MoleculaRR's exhaustive examination (http://houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4118) of the "missing" diagram.

On Delilah, the name for which I am somehow certain we are supposed to mistake Delial, has the original Hebrew been noted here?

It's an exact match: delilah, lit. delicate. A direct correlation for little Delial, but of course a complete contradiction for Delilah, the scheming bitch!

[John B.]

With a background in several languages, I have a tendency to pronounce names with less of an American accent (?).* Consequently, for me, "Delial" was/is "Deh-lah-ee-ahl" much like "Belial" from the film Basket Case, (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083624/) but with a "D" in front instead of a "B." Of course, this didn't stop me from occasionally alternating the pronunciation with "Deh-lee-ahl" because I have a tendency to mispronounce things. (When I say "pronounce" I'm referring to within my mind, not out loud.)

And just so this comment is not entirely unsubstantial, Delial holds some resonance of "delineate" = to represent pictorally. Delial is a picture, and obviously a representation, although she is in some ways like the blue of the <font color="#0000FF">House</font>. Fill in at your leisure.

If we do go with words that merely sound similar (Halloway = hallway = the game that Daisy brings up but which the cameras are unable to hear correctly) "Belial" and Delial" are similar. "Belial" as a name originates from the Old Testament. (Deut. 13:13) Wickeness; ungodliness; evil.

I will stop here before I start rehashing what other people have said before me. I am still new to the site and still catching up. Pardon me.

*Note: This shouldn't be read as an insult, seeing as I am an American myself. We do tend to pronounce things weirdly.

Welcome to the forum. What a thoughtful post.

The multiple possibilities for pronunciation, of course, serves to increase the range of references the name introduces. A blue screen=a blank slate.

Belial was also the name of one of Milton's rebellious angels in Paradise Lost. For what (little) that's worth.

[orwell]

Another possible variation that came to mind since I've been reading up on roman history and just completed the task given in the phrase. DELial. "DELenda est Carthago."

Delenda (http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookit.pl?latin=delenda)
deleo : (deletum ) to destroy, wipe out, erase.
deleo : blot out, erase / annihilate, destroy.

I'm pretty sure the phrase is somewhere in the book; unfortunately my copy isn't with me, and its been a good while since I've fully read it. I'm just tossing this out there before I go to sleep since just writing it down does as well as a marker in the house, though I hope to be able to elaborate on this later.

[katatonic]

...

"DEE-lee-uhl"

Hmm... I have always pronounced it that way. I thought I was doing it wrong.

[poco locomotive]

I think it rhymes with denial.

Pronunciation: di-'nI(-&)l, dE-
Function: noun
6 : a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality


therefore Delial is pronounced: di-'LI(-&)l, dE-

[fearful_syzygy]

I think most of us know what 'denial' means.

Have you ever read a thread before posting your inane ramblings in it?

[fatwoul]

I think most of us know what 'denial' means...

I think poco knows, too. She exercises the skill of denial every morning, when she looks at herself in the mirror and says

"I'm fine. Everything is fine. I'm fine."

[ManiKatt]

It ain't a river in egypt.....

[Ellimist]

It ain't a river in egypt.....
... ::cough:: "just (http://houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2187)" ::cough::

[ManiKatt]

http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/06/0622.html
---
from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=denial
de·ni·al ** (*P*)**Pronunciation Key**(d-nl)
n.

1. A refusal to comply with or satisfy a request.
2.
a. A refusal to grant the truth of a statement or allegation; a contradiction.
b. Law. The opposing by a defendant of an allegation of the plaintiff.

3.
a. A refusal to accept or believe something, such as a doctrine or belief.
b. Psychology. An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

4. The act of disowning or disavowing; repudiation.
5. Abstinence; self-denial.

---
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial
Denial
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Jump to: navigation, search

Denial is a psychological defense mechanism in which a person faced with a fact that is uncomfortable or painful to accept rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence. The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness (minimisation) or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). The concept of denial is particularly important to the study of addiction.

The theory of denial was first researched seriously by Anna Freud. She classified denial as a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality. Where denial occurs in mature minds, it is most often associated with death and dying. More recent research has significantly expanded the scope and utility of the concept. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross used denial as the first of five stages in the psychology of a dying patient, and the idea has been extended to include the reactions of survivors to news of a death. Thus, when parents are informed of the death of a child, their first reaction is often of the form, "No! You must have the wrong house, you can't mean our child!"

Unlike some other defense mechanisms postulated by psychoanalytic theory (for instance, repression), the general existence of denial is fairly easy to verify, even for non-specialists. On the other hand, denial is one of the most controversial defense mechanisms, since it can be easily used to create unfalsifiable theories: anything the subject says or does that appears to disprove the interpreter's theory is explained, not as evidence that the interpreter's theory is wrong, but as the subject's being "in denial".

A commonly-cited example of spurious denial is the psychologist who insists, against all evidence, that his patient is homosexual: any attempt by the patient to disprove the theory (as by pointing out his strong desire for women) is evidence of denial and thus evidence of the underlying theory. This tension can become serious, especially in areas such as child abuse and recovered memory. Proponents often respond to allegations of false memory by asserting that the subjects are genuine victims who have reverted to denial. Critics reply (some seriously, some less so) that it is the proponents who are in denial about the tenuousness of their theories.

The concept of denial is important in twelve-step programs, where the abandonment or reversal of denial forms the basis of the first, fourth, fifth, eighth and tenth steps. The ability to deny or minimize is an essential part of what enables an addict to continue his or her behavior in the face of evidence that, to an outsider, appears overwhelming. This is cited as one of the reasons that compulsion is seldom effective in treating addiction — the habit of denial remains.

Understanding and avoiding denial is also important in the treatment of various diseases. The American Heart Association cites denial as a principal reason that treatment of a heart attack is delayed. Because the symptoms are so varied, and often have other potential explanations, the opportunity exists for the patient to deny the emergency, often with fatal consequences. It is common for patients to delay mammograms or other tests because of a fear of cancer, even though this is clearly maladaptive. It is the responsibility of the care team, and of the nursing staff in particular, to train at-risk patients to avoid such behavior.
---

This is easy.... But what specifically causes Navy's "denial?"

Matt

[/b]

[poco locomotive]

Your research answered your question: it is death.

HOL p.420 (a description of the photograph)
"Illness and hunger are upon her, but death is still a few paces behind...."

According to Leffler, Navy has purposely framed the photograph so that he is also one of the subjects, "while Navidson does not physically appear in the frame he still occupies the right side of the photograph."(p.421)

It would seem that death is only a few paces behind Navy as well as Delial. He perhaps realized this at the moment he took the photograph. Unlike Delial, who faced her destiny, he continued to live, in denial of his newfound knowledge.

[katatonic]

Love the new signature, fatwoul. Quite excellent.

[ManiKatt]

Cummon, of course ominous "death" has something to do with it. Death has to do with everything. Who's death though? Or is it really that Navy denied his human ability to save the child in favor of photographing it that is important here? Doesn't this relate more closely to another 'Denial' of Navy's??? Perhaps the denial of his lack of connection with his family? Is denial more and more becoming the symbol for the separation, the empty negation that exists between not only he and his family but also he and his wife? Hasn't he chosen photography over his family? And even when his family is at risk, when Karen demands he spend more time with his family. What does he do? He makes it a photography project and he becomes more obsessed with the project than what it is doing to his family. Why dont you look at the link to the symbol I referenced there.

The symbol used for denial is also akin to not only negation (which can mean a lack of connection). But it is actually part of the holy trinity. It is the spiritus or holy spirit or holy ghost. That part of God which is not connected with man. That part of God that is in contrast to the Father and the Son completely unable to connect directly with man until the coming of apocalypse.........................
MDS

[ManiKatt]

katatonic how did you get so many posts so fast? I mean look how long I've been around and I have less than 400!!!

[katatonic]

katatonic how did you get so many posts so fast? I mean look how long I've been around and I have less than 400!!!

I get into kicks where I respond to every post made by anyone. It's quite annoying when it happens. I'm on one right now.
But I've got nothing on sutrix.

[ManiKatt]

NIce since I happen to be on I'd like to say kudos to the comment on fatwouls signature. Only Batman could keep that bomb from exploding for so long while at the same time running through an endless crowd of the same characters.

[ManiKatt]

Yeah, my posts are few but important, sometimes. I mean it's damn important to know were not talking about the River Nile.

Who broke more codes than anyone back in the day??

I'm still searching, really I am, in between the obsessions with Blake and Nabokav I find the most interesting things in between the sheets of this house of leaves.
Don't You?
Any good code breaks lately? The best one I've found on this board lately is that awesome thread

The Unsaid Coincidence
http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1446&start=15&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

[poco locomotive]

Or is it really that Navy denied his human ability to save the child in favor of photographing it that is important here? Doesn't this relate more closely to another 'Denial' of Navy's??? Perhaps the denial of his lack of connection with his family? Is denial more and more becoming the symbol for the separation, the empty negation that exists between not only he and his family but also he and his wife? Hasn't he chosen photography over his family? And even when his family is at risk, when Karen demands he spend more time with his family. What does he do? He makes it a photography project and he becomes more obsessed with the project than what it is doing to his family. Why dont you look at the link to the symbol I referenced there.

The symbol used for denial is also akin to not only negation (which can mean a lack of connection). But it is actually part of the holy trinity. It is the spiritus or holy spirit or holy ghost. That part of God which is not connected with man. That part of God that is in contrast to the Father and the Son completely unable to connect directly with man until the coming of apocalypse.........................
MDS

Mani-
The symbol is very interesting and I did look at it.
You make quite a few excellent points about denial. Navy's entire existence is about that, which is utterly ironic since as a documentarian he must be involved because he cares. At least, that is the assumption one would be inclined to make. But a lot of photojournalists really are so busy trying to get the shot, they loose touch with the reality around them... I know this since I am a photographer, and alot of my friends are photojournalists. The very act of photography places one in a unique situation: you are there, but not part of what is going on anymore. You are just taking pictures. Of course, the passionate photographer is driven to do this, and can't even stop themself from it. It is important to acheive some detachment in order to do "the important work." When I want to be part of the party, I leave my camera at home. When I am stressed, bored, or uncomfortable at a party...I bust out my gear. My camera is definitely a coping mechanism. It would be interesting to find out if the other photogs on the forum feel the same way?
-poco

[fearful_syzygy]

to Kat:
guess what...you aren't really that annoying, just pathetic.
poco
Actually, she's neither, but guess what: you're both!

[modiFIed]

I'm not normally one to do this, but...since Poco has made an (annoying) habit of picking on people for typos and what not - claiming she is "passionate" about spelling or something - I feel I must...


themself

I don't believe that's a word.


acheive

The rule is "i before e except after c", though there are exceptions. We can run through them if you want.


loose touch

I think what you want here is "lose"

etc. - Personally, I don't care about typos in informal writing, but I'm hoping this may help you forego your next "instructional" post.

That said, I'm always interested in exploring the photographer's viewpoint.

I disagree with the notion that hiding behind a camera somehow places you "outside" the action you are documenting. This may occur in the mind of the photographer, but it is a defense mechanism (a denial?) and not the actual reality. In the case of war correspondents and such, there may not be much they can do about the action they are documenting, but that does not mean they are not part of it. Think about it this way: the moments at which they choose to click the shutter determine the image of a war to those not involved. Thus, if you are, by virtue of your choices, determining the image of a war for those not involved--but whose assent is required for the war to be a success--then you are very much part of it. You can "choose" to document the war in a positive way (iconic portraits of soldiers, distant shots of firefights, soldiers giving candy to children, etc.) , or in a negative way (soldiers beating up captured enemy, civilians burned to a crisp, etc.).

Quite simply, though, the way I see it, taking pictures is very much like making love to a beautiful woman.

[Slow Dog Noodle]

The very act of photography places one in a unique situation: you are there, but not part of what is going on anymore. You are just taking pictures. Of course, the passionate photographer is driven to do this, and can't even stop themself from it. It is important to acheive some detachment in order to do "the important work

I would also tend to disagree with you. By being there you are inherently part of the situation, whether you like it or not. In some instances the desire for a photograph is trumped by circumstance. This is exactly what Navy struggled with after his taking his photo of Delial. If he truly was separated from the situation he wouldn't have the guilt that he does, which comes out in his letter to Karen.

[katatonic]

to Kat:
guess what...you aren't really that annoying, just pathetic.
poco

And that was necessary because...?
If you'll remember, I haven't made a point of your unbelievable idiocy in this thread yet.
Have a nice day - good luck out there.

[poco locomotive]

And that was necessary because...?
If you'll remember, I haven't made a point of your unbelievable idiocy in this thread yet.
Have a nice day - good luck out there.

please, allow me to do it for you: http://www.houseofleaves.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4352&start=15&sid=273f855fad68c4212dfadc01db21b935

[katatonic]

I haven't made a point of your unbelievable idiocy in this thread yet.

please, allow me to do it for you...
You decided that everyone who hasn't already noticed your incessant stupid babblings should be informed? This is why you are stupid.


It seems I have really angered you.
Yes, you effing genius. Now bugger off.

[fatwoul]

I haven't made a point of your unbelievable idiocy in this thread yet.

please, allow me to do it for you...
You decided that everyone who hasn't already noticed your incessant stupid babblings should be informed? This is why you are stupid.


It seems I have really angered you.
Yes, you effing genius. Now bugger off.

Kat, despite our often rocky relationship I consider you a friend, and certainly one of my favourite people on here. As a friend, I want to make sure you understand how completely demented this poco woman really is. This is the woman who told me in PM that she came to the forum simply to cause trouble, because in her damaged and very small brain, that is apparently the best way to attract MZD's attention to her writing. Can you even begin to imagine what a desperate and sad world poco lives in where she feels that is the only way she can get someone to look at her creations? Imagine how little love she must have in her life to feel as pathetic as that. Just think, waking up each morning and realising you are a joke and even your kids don't love you.

I know she is deeply irritating, don't get angry with her. Pity her for her written form of Tourette's Syndrome. :(

[katatonic]

Mr. Woul, you are wonderful.

[ManiKatt]

Can we get back to Denial? This is very important stuff if your going to understand HOL. Denial seems to explain a lot about every one of the characters. I think Mark is talking about families in HOL. About perhaps not only this family he creates but more importantly how all families which are so close physically seemed to be ripped apart psychologically by denial. Is there a family in HOL that is connected like a family should be? What is the purpose of the house?

I would argue that the House and it's labrynth IS a symbol of the denial Navy has for how his actions effect his family. In fact it's a symbol for how each individual (inside the story or out in our reality) becomes caught in a web of self deception. A mind fuck that makes us act unlike our potential. HOlloway denies that there is no danger so he creates danger and goes on a killing spree. Navy denies that his family need him more than the house so he abandones his family (just imagine going to explore a labrynth that appeared in your home only to leave your wife and children in the house to be swallowed up by anything that come out!) Karen denies the importance of the labrynth at all and thus creates a bigger gap between her and her husband. etc I think i could go on but....

What really does the house do to these people? It pulls them away from each other, creates unknowing and fear. If you deny the truth what are you left with? Unknowing endless wandering in no direction (a maze with no purpose) which is a great creator of fear. Is there any better way to explain what denial does to people??

Matt

[fearful_syzygy]

'This is not for you' is a denial of sorts as well, isn't it?

Does it work?

[ManiKatt]

I think so. Remember that the text itself IS the House (of Leaves), the great tree Yggdrasil, which is the tree of knowledge and by stating in the dedication that "This is not for you" Mark is representing the negation which is the House. He is summing up denial in the dedication. The way we make ourselves seperate from those around us. I think iI remember him talking about how when he was writing HOL he was a plumber (I think is was plumbing or some sort of construction) and he had a freind he worked with who was your classic punk rocker, the "Fuck You All and Your Mother To" type and how this related to what he was saying in the dedication. I wish I still had that video...

Hmm I'll find it.

Matt

[ManiKatt]

OK here I've added it, if my server gets too much traffic I might take it off. But here's a cool vid of MZSD for now talking about the dedication. MZD takes the question in a different direction but the story of MZD being a plumber is there.

http://www.snerious.com/misc/mzd1.WMV

Enjoy!
Matt

Oh yeah GSR filmed it not me........

[poco locomotive]

A pathetic take on a photographer: this is precisely Navy's dilemma.
I guess it depends on the photog's viewpoint (i.e. approach to photography) how involved he gets in the subject/surroundings while he shoots pictures. I can think of some types of photography wherein the photog literally directs the action and the opposite extreme: the purist, a documentary photographer who only takes pictures and refuses to become involved. Seems to me Navy did/does this option B
It is pathetic.
Think he is in denial of his own pathetic nature?

[ManiKatt]

The photographer becomes so involved in the process of photography that he forgets to participate in the world around him. He tells himself this is part of being a photographer but this is his denial. An artist cannot depict something he is uninvolved in because otherwise it wouldn't be art. It would only be spectacle. We all know that the photograph of Delial is more than spectacle. HOwever the truth that he is involved and he was a participant and the ultimate outcome was death is what he hides from.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/metroeast/story/9B1CD9326955BD35862570FE000E63EA?OpenDocument

[poco locomotive]

yes, ManiKatt, that is how I see it.

also interesting that Navy's wife is an ex-model...used to option A..being directed by her photog.

[Wraithson]

That Kevin Carter photo though, that made me want to cry....
But I don't cry, it just doesn't work for me.
Who here has happened by that photo?
The Delial photo that was Navidson's, I envisioned it so much differently than the Carter photo.

[poco locomotive]

Who here has happened by that photo?

It's posted here somewhere...so most of us have happened on it. Mr. FS(he's a master of the search function) can help link it if you need to see it.

[Apung]

I find it interesting how...in one instance, Navy & Carter greatly resemble each other in one aspect:

Both use photography to preserve something that will soon die. The irony in this being that in the photo involving Delial, The vulture (though shooed away), Delial was presumed to later die. However, she (as well as Kevin Carter) are virtually preserved forever, due to the photo. As stated above, the photo that caused 1 death and showed another, is the same photo that put preserved 2 lives forever

[poco locomotive]

If you take this conclusion even further:
All photographs preserve a fleeting moment. Even the most staged shots only capture a very specific moment in time, a moment that passes, or morbidly, dies.
All moments die, pass on... perhaps we are all in denial that this is true. In a way each moment is a death if you look at it this way. Each moment moves us closer to the inevitable: death.

On a more positive note, all photographs are an ah-ha moment as well. When you capture something fleeting in a photograph, you can preserve it forever (or until the limit of the papers and dyes, etc. of the actual print).

[Apung]

If you take this conclusion even further:
All photographs preserve a fleeting moment. Even the most staged shots only capture a very specific moment in time, a moment that passes, or morbidly, dies.
All moments die, pass on... perhaps we are all in denial that this is true. In a way each moment is a death if you look at it this way. Each moment moves us closer to the inevitable: death.

On a more positive note, all photographs are an ah-ha moment as well. When you capture something fleeting in a photograph, you can preserve it forever (or until the limit of the papers and dyes, etc. of the actual print).

Exactly my point, and excellent expoundation, poco! I'm not sure how many of you out there are photographers as well, but I am one (as in...I own my own small business, and have had quite a bit of success), so this story, this topic line, and what Navy does hits close to home. I dunno...it's just easier to look at it when you're looking at pictures like Delial's Delimma, etc.

But you're absolutely correct....in a single fleeting moment, you capture what can be preserved for an eternity. Another thing that I've always mused over, is the fact that a painter can paint a picture over the course of a month, but the environment and paint itself can ruin a painting. An artist (drawing) can draw a picture, but the paper can turn yellow with time, ruining the drawing. This can take the artists days or months to draw a single picture.

A photograph, however, can *literally* take 1/1000th of a second...and easily become more durable than any other form of art. Even if the picture if torched or melted, you can easily make copies from slides. You cannot do that with a painting or drawing.

[poco locomotive]

Have you ever had the experience where you motor dirve through something, shutter firing rapidly, only to feel like you still missed the quintessential element of the picture you were aiming for?

It's a funny thing, but sometimes the split second in between the shots is the the shot that should've been taken. Timing is everything.
and there are at least a few other photogs here.

I agree that this is one of the things that made the book particularly appealing to me...I felt like I really could relate to NAvy's character, and his drive to keep documenting things and photographing them.

[fearful_syzygy]

Ah yes, the famous dark line where the eye persists in seeing something that was never there To begin with

[poco locomotive]

Of course, sometimes the opposite occurs and when I see my exposures later I think, "My goodness, what an incredible capture....I didn't see that when I took the picture!" These are usually the best pictures I take!


edit: sometimes there is no there there, so the pictures just kind of suck.

[Apung]

Of course, sometimes the opposite occurs and when I see my exposures later I think, "My goodness, what an incredible capture....I didn't see that when I took the picture!" These are usually the best pictures I take!

edit: sometimes there is no there there, so the pictures just kind of suck.

Especially if you shoot nothing but traddy (traditional), to where you can't take 150 pictures of a single object; your pictures are limited - but judging by your comments regarding exposures, you may have meant negatives!

I completely agree - sometimes, the instances between the instances that you captured are the real pictures that you should've had. Timing IS everything.

Another thing to point out is that...sometimes timing isn't everything. I mean...it is, but it isn't. I mean..what if the picture that you meant to capture is in the picture you took, at the time that you took, but...the picture that you want is actually inside the picture that you took! Ya know? Like...the picture that you TRULY want is a close-up, or zoomed in corner shot of the picture that you took! So now, the picture takes on a sort of...second dimension (Time, and location):

- Was it taken at the exact right time?
- Does the picture need to be modified from an x-axis / y-axis point of view? (Zoomed in, cropped)

Thinking over it now, having a picture within a picture could be directly correlated to having Navidson's copy of "House of Leaves" inside our copy of "House of Leaves"

[poco locomotive]

I was referring to traddy, but typically shoot the digital these days.

I like to shoot full frame, and rarely crop at all. I'll toss out a picture, instead of cropping. It's my style.
One thing I love is to to see photographers-who-crop thinking methods. There was a fantastic exhibit at MOCA awhile ago of Man Ray's works. It showed the proof sheets-- marked up and with crops in grease pencil-- and the final prints. It was fascinating to see his thought process.

Your point is well taken.

[Apung]

Ay, laddy. I also shoot purely traddy...as with you, it's my style. I dunno...there's just something about knowing that the shot that you take is the shot that you wanted, and that you dont need modern technology to make your personal art look good! Like you, I'll throw out a shot, even if a simple cropping is all it needs.

Going back to the main point of this board, however, I believe that being a photographer definately adds a whole new level to the intimacy between Navy & the Reader, especially traddys photographers - after all, you never hear about Navy going on his computer to edit his stuff. You DO hear about editing (from him and Karen both, actually), but not editing photographs.

Come to think of it, photographs are rarely mentioned as a source of making a point or making a case in HoL. ...most of the info. seems to come from the Hi-8's, doesnt it?

[modiFIed]

Ay, laddy.

Just FYI - Poco is a woman. But she's very immune to offense, so no big deal. But just so you know.



Come to think of it, photographs are rarely mentioned as a source of making a point or making a case in HoL. ...most of the info. seems to come from the Hi-8's, doesnt it?

...keeping in mind that all of the camera work actually only occurs in the mind of Zampano, as edited by Johnny Truant. Therefore there are no actual photographic artifacts to discuss (which is itself a source of a lot of discussion here (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4016)).

[Raminagrobis]

...keeping in mind that all of the camera work actually only occurs in the mind of Zampano, as edited by Johnny Truant. Therefore there are no actual photographic artifacts to discuss (which is itself a source of a lot of discussion here (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4016)).
To frame it another way: isn't the problem here precisely that there is an actual photographic artifact to discuss, where there should not be?

[modiFIed]

Well sure, you could say that. I assume you mean the Kevin Carter photo.

Looking at my post, I was unclear - I meant to balk at a discussion that seems to want to veer off into the significance of Navidson's "work," since there is none in the context of HoL's fictive world.

So thanks for your...hey!

..who was that masked man?

[Apung]

...keeping in mind that all of the camera work actually only occurs in the mind of Zampano, as edited by Johnny Truant. Therefore there are no actual photographic artifacts to discuss.

Sorry about that, poco!

And that's a very good point, mod - I hadn't thought about that before. Hm. Wow...that makes a huge impact on the story, and plot in general. Hm.. I guess I always just kinda...assumed it was there...i dunno why, though

[poco locomotive]

hmmm...
:scratching head:

where is the offense?

though I have to say I enjoyed the banter over photo technique/approach...
I was approaching the conversation with the notion in mind that Navidson REALLY HAD believed he had taken a photo of Delial.
What if, at some point in time that blank space p421 contained a pasted in photo of Delial that somehow fell out of the book/journal that Zampano created and left for Johnny to find?

The photo critique in the book (read an earlier post in the thread) describes the feeling that the photographer's presence is felt in the framing of the picture.
So it seems we have a picture inside of a picture after all.

PS, love the thread you guys brought up...I would never have found it otherwise!

[John B.]

I have nothing, really, to contribute to this thread, except a link to another thread (http://www.houseofleaves.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2149) that tries to address the question of the veracity of the image.

[Apung]

...the book/journal that Zampano created and left for Johnny to find?

Um...i know you probably know this, but just for clarification... Zampano did *not* leave the book/journal for Johnny to find. It just happened that way.

...I'm really not sure he left it for anyone to find. Like when Johnny started getting into it, and started to stray from Lude, etc.? He started slowly dropping out of society, and taking on Zampano's habits. Now...yes, there was that quote in the beginning that said something to the effect of, "whoever finds this, if you can make a profit, it's yours, good job. If not, that satisfies me." part, but...I think that was in a "just in case" scenario. I really dont think that it was left for anyone in particular...

[poco locomotive]

LOL!
Of course.... he was effing dead and left no will.but the dead leave things behind whether or not they intend to!

will be reading that "new" thread as time allows.

[katatonic]

Um...i know you probably know this, When talking to poco, never count on that.


but just for clarification... Zampano did *not* leave the book/journal for Johnny to find. It just happened that way. How are you so certain? Because I think it's very possible that Zampano knew Johnny, even if Johnny didn't know Zampano (which is also not a proven fact).

[Ellimist]

How are you so certain? Because I think it's very possible that Zampano knew Johnny, even if Johnny didn't know Zampano (which is also not a proven fact).
There is ambiguity in the book - no way to know whether Z knew JT. But, I don't see anything to suggest he did. So, I tend to say, "I do not know," on the matter.

[Apung]

I think it's very possible that Zampano knew Johnny, even if Johnny didn't know Zampano (which is also not a proven fact).

...I'm going off of the fact that in the beginning of HoL, as JT starts to tell his side of the story, he tells of Lude calling him up at 4 AM, and having him (JT) drive to another town, to meet him. That's when this all began. Let it be noticed that Lude lived next to (or really close to) Zampano

[katatonic]

Right but if Pelafina knew Zampano, which was suggested in one of her letters, then Zampano may very well have known her son, no?

[Apung]

Right but if Pelafina knew Zampano, which was suggested in one of her letters, then Zampano may very well have known her son, no?

Hrm. Very good point...very probable, as well - nice catch!

[hizrothezarg]

Re Johnny Truant - it put me in mind of "Johnny Favorite" from Angel Heart (Alan Parker, 1987). Any mileage there?

[dazed&confused]

Expanding on the play of names-> did anyone else catch this?
In foot note 342, it talks about "the Deutsch Electron Synchrotron (DESY; pronounced "daisy")"

Deutsch? As in Deutsch Bag?

[fearful_syzygy]

Yes precisely, well done.

:icon_neutral:

[Navi]

I concur with the :icon_neutral:.

[katatonic]

What are you guys talking about?
He's clearly a comedic genius.
...

[Ellimist]

Deutsch? As in Deutsch Bag?
I don't know what "bag" is in Deutsch; I only know English and some Spanish.

[hello?]

I don't know what "bag" is in Deutsch; I only know English and some Spanish.

If memory serves me, it is "die Tasche."

[Ellimist]

I came here to talk about BasketCase the movie... but I see that it was already done pages ago.

I like this thread.

[Ellimist]

What?

[The Coma-Man]

Bag = Beutel. Or Tasche.