Didn't mean to offend...I guess

[meanhippie]

Damn - didn't mean to touch so many nerves - just finished reading the book and i
thought i would try and see what others thought about - thought this site was here to
discuss the book not worship it - sorry my manner isn't as polite as yours but i seriously
don't see what you get out of this book - it is an interesting read on the train to work but I
do not think it is the groundbreaking bible you seem to think it is - and there is nothing
NEW about the way it is written - ever read any David Wallace Foster or J.G Ballard or
William Burroughs or Richard Brautigan or Robert A. Wilson? If this site is to truly discuss
the merits of this book then lets do so - tell me WHY it is so deep and spiritual for you -
tell me how the structure of the book lends itself to the point - tell me how the crosscutting
between the manuscripts helps create the books environment - don't dog me because i
have a different opinion then you - so i didn't dig the book - big deal - You know what? I
didn't like American Beauty either and I thought DOGMA was lame. Think David Lynch is
awesome but EraserHead and Wild at Heart sucked. There are good points to everything
and bad points - stengths and weaknesses adn everyone defines things differently - You
finished the book now leave the maze

[meanhippie]

Has no one ever had these thoughts or experiences prior to reading this novel? Did you not know that everything is connected and we always pay for our sins but life is big and we do have a say in where we go and what we do? If this book helps you get clear of the maze then cool. For me, it was well traveled ground.

[dreamboat]

I am in total agreement with you. Some people started reading this book with no intention of ever finishing when, in fact, it is just another work of fiction as easy to put down as the abridged fiction in Readers' Digest if you choose to view it that way. It is a good book. When I finished it I was very glad to have read it, but all the codes and endless games are wearing thin. I do, however, think the book did its job. It has trapped many people.

[meanhippie]

Thank you, dreamboat for your comments - everyone practically ripped my heart out when i said i didn't care for the book - i mean, its a decent book and obviously the writer put a lot into it but, basically, its just another slightly less
than scary, sometimes interesting, sometimes annoying book. Its conclusions were nothing shocking - its meaning no more deep than your average twilight zone or outerlimits episode - all the hype is kind of dumb - know whats really
funny? I have a friend who works for Trimark Pictures and his job is to go online under various names and drum up hype for future projects - name dropping, speculating on controversies, things such as that - using the internet to
create a madeup hype about future projects to get the attention of people without the advertising, making people think its bigger then it really is - the Blair witch is a good example and this book stinks of that same kind of publicity -
publishers and movie makers are smart - be careful you don't get caught in their maze - was this book really floating around the internet and slowly stared generating followers via word of mouth or is that an invention of the publishers
to make the book seem more important and deeper then it really is?

[MicheleVR5]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
everyone practically ripped my heart out when i said i didn't care for the book

If you go back and re-read your first thread, I think you'll find only one person actually flamed you. images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
was this book really floating around the internet and slowly stared generating followers via word of mouth

Yes it was. I can only vouch for Poe's Angry Psychos though. Click here (http://www.smoe.org/lists/angry-psychos/v02.n237) and note the date. The site that held the book has been dead ever since Mark signed his book deal.

[Bok]

I read your topic "Worst book ever" before this dicussion, and I replied with a rather large post there. There are some remarks in this topic that I'd like to respond to though:
## still not convinced the whole thing of gaining popularity via internet before publishing is true
-- well, it is true, to qoute Mark, dated on August 20th 1997:"Thanks very much for your comments. I'm glad you liked it."
## its almost like he is making fun of the whole thing
-- I agree, he must be making fun of it. No one can take the notes to the edition serious !? And yes, I think Mark got caught up in his own parody, but he didn't get lost images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Just my 5 cents,
Jorrit

[edit: some typo's]

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Bok ]

[meanhippie]

so i am prone to exaggeration - only one person was really anger but the "anger" vibes were there images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

images/smiles/icon_confused.gif still not convinced the whole thing of gaining popularity via internet before publishing is true - could be - i mean it is obvious Mark put a lot into this book and he should be commended for that - it is hard to write a good novel - hell, its hard to write a bad novel - and the story and the intentions are good - but the structure of the whole thing is so damn pretentious and academic and psuedo-intellectual - its almost like he is making fun of the whole thing - heres this film that everyone becomes obsessed with and everyone argues about its meaning and this point and that point but everyone has missed the point and lost the meaning just like getting lost in the maze - and i think Mark got lost somewhere along the way and got caught up in his own parody - I mean its a decent book but it is not the groundbreaking, mind-expanding tome everyone is making it out to be - read "Diary of a Drug Fiend" by Alister Crowley - its a better book and gives better lessons on handling ones own life

[OriginalIdea]

Okay, I only really recently heard about this book and a lot of my opinions and evaluations have probably been put forward, hashed out, left behind, reminded of, scoffed at, and worshipped before me by other people. The thing to remember is this: It's a work of fiction. Like all things, everyone has their own opinion, but if you're so disgusted by the book (I realize this comes more than three years later) don't discuss it.
What's really funny though is that you say this:

...everyone argues about its meaning and this point and that point but everyone has missed the point and lost the meaning just like getting lost in the maze...
What you might just be failing to notice is that getting lost in it is the point. If you open that door and try exploring all the extra meanings within the book, you can get lost in it. But just like the cop in the book, you don't have to go down that hallway, you can turn around and walk straight outside.

[Diary of a Drug Fiend is] a better book and gives better lessons on handling ones own life.
House of Leaves isn't a lesson on how to handle life.

...there is nothing NEW about the way it is written...
While I haven't read anything by the authors you mentioned, I'd like to point something out:
There was nothing NEW about the idea of The Matrix. It was another story about finding out you aren't who you thought you were; the idea that the world you live in isn't where you should be. The 13th Floor? Hell, even The Truman Show.
My point being: everything is influenced and/or inspired by something else. It's like an artist that covers an older song. Sometimes they cover it well, sometimes they don't, and then there are people who think differently.
What I think you need to do is stop being bitter.
It seems to frustrate you that others enjoyed this book more than you did. Don't try to resist conformity by being different and disliking things that a group of people enjoy. Stop being so bitter about informed works of art. I'd be willing to wager you didn't much care for Moulin Rouge or Chicago either.
But hey, take heart: I'm sure there are plenty of other people who liked them just as much as you did. :)

[zakalwe]

thought this site was here to
discuss the book not worship it

Perhaps a reason for this impression is that the book is much more rewarding if you assume that everything in it (word choice, layout, structure, references etc) is there for a reason- ie you have to trust MZD that your close attention will pay off.

originalidea said:

What you might just be failing to notice is that getting lost in it is the point.

Exactly.

If you (hippie) think we're wasting our time here, fair enough. One of the joys of the forum for me is that it's not just the temple of MZD- there are some fairly stimulating conversations on related literary topics, contributed to by members who are (generally) much more literate and informed than any other forum i've been on. Also we have baby animals, and some of the best pedantry ever.

meanhippie said:


tell me WHY it is so deep and spiritual for you -
tell me how the structure of the book lends itself to the point - tell me how the crosscutting
between the manuscripts helps create the books environment

All this is there- try the oft-referenced list of useful threads- terse (or worse) responses on this forum await those who give the impression they have waded in with strident opinions without first getting a sense of the ground that's already been covered. A dose of perspective on HoL's merits is perhaps healthy from time to time; asking for any proof of its structural and narratological virtuosity when there is already a wealth of material on the topic(s) smacks of laziness.

[modiFIed]

making people think its bigger then [sic] it really is

Like a certain house on Ash Tree Lane...anyway, you were clued in by Zampano on Page 3: "...the more interesting material dwells exclusively on the interpretation of events within [the Navidson Record]. This direction seems more promising, even if the house itself, lke Melville's behemoth, remains resistant to summation."

[Aziphale]

i think its a great book but lets face it hippie som people get a lil overzealous. in comparison have you ever sean a star wars fan?now for some dissecting a book into debates about which footnote refers to what on whichever page is a exciting endevour, but not for myself thats just to in depth. i just liked the book and decided to hit the internet up for some late night cant sleep research.
in conclusion excellent book, good website.

[1exist]

Damn - didn't mean to touch so many nerves...

FUCK YOU STUPID IMP MAN!!!

http://www.abrupt.org/accidentbig.gif

[hello?]

-Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:54 pm
-Tue Jun 26, 2001 8:09 pm
-Tue Jun 26, 2001 11:31 pm
-Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:12 am
-Wed Jun 27, 2001 11:49 am
-Wed Jun 27, 2001 2:12 pm
-Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:30 am
-Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:24 pm
-Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:45 pm
-Wed Dec 08, 2004 9:08 am
-Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:50 am
-Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:38 pm

I think the issue most pertinent to this discussion is the missing posts between June 2001 and December 2004. It suggests that meanhippie's children had grown resentful of him and stopped replying, but also, perhaps, that the resulting silence caused meanhippie to resent his children as well. This mutual resent continued for three and a half years before a stray son, returning as OriginalIdea, sought atonement through confrontation with the father. This opened the floodgates and allowed others to voice their true feelings about the parent that was never there for them. I like to think they realize they are to blame as well for leaving their parents at such a young age.

[fatwoul]

...meanhippie to resent his children as well...

Being a gay vampire who works for the IRS can do that, I'd imagine. :D

[ManiKatt]

It obvious that when you get on a site and flame a book that almost everyone who participates in the site loves that your gonna stire up some emotions. If you didn't expect that then you probably don't have experience dealing with people who are passionate.

My question is this, it seems to me that reading the book was almost a chore to you. If you didn't enjoy it is you weren't pulled in, why did you continue to read it to the end?
Furthur, how did you read the book? Did you start on page one and read straight through? Did you follow the directions in the footnotes? Did you read the appendices as you were reading it or wait until the end? Was there no sense of a hole in the book? Something said but left unsaid? Because to me there is definately something going on here beyond the surface of the text. In fact I know there is something going on I just haven't pinpointed all the particulars. More than just games with words and tributes to the authors who you mention (authors who you are correct to say must have helped to inspire MZD). What do you say of the word house being blue. Is it your opinion that this is all just random garbage placed in here to mislead the reader into thinking there is a mystery? Do you see nothing of the subtle hints that seem so much like Nabokav but on closer inspection are obviously just MZD? I find it fascinating to see that someone who disliked the book so much actually wanted to post a message about how much s/he didn't like the book. Obviously it affected you somehow or you wouldn't continue to defend your bad review.

[Vumette]

Meanhippie said:
the story and the intentions are good - but the structure of the whole thing is so damn pretentious and academic and psuedo-intellectual - its almost like he is making fun of the whole thing

Well I think you've got a point there in using the word "pretentious". But I think you're wrong in saying that "it's almost like he's making fun" of it. He is.

That's exactly what MDZ is doing: making fun of the academic world and jargon. And that's one aspect of the book that I really love.

[OriginalIdea]

I actually didn't mean to stir all this back up. As you'll note in my first contribution to this thread, I knew that I was adding something more than three years after the fact.

And for the record: Gay vampires who work at the IRS can do anything they damn well please. :P

[Admiral_Shanks]

So, felt like posting a response here... I loved the book because when I read it I knew nothing about it... I hadn't really got a clue about what would happen... and because I like to get swept up in things pasrt of me did, and always will believe it is real. And that is what makes it great to me. The idea that someone (MZD) could have just found this written by someone else... it's got a history that COULD be possible... and I think he played to that... played to the people that are happy to accept it COULD be real... even if at the back of your mind you know it's not. It why horror is scary... because even though you know it's a film you're watching, part of you think it could happen to you... besically, I love this because I usually read fantasy novels, and this was something so fantastically different and weird... so there ya go.

:)

[LJonesy]

Ever since i started writing i'd always wanted to write a book which wasn't one straight page after page of text - i'd wanted to tell a story in every way possible. I thought that was near impossible until i found House of Leaves. Now i know that what i'd always envisioned can actually be done.

[Shadow Girl]

About a month before I heard about House of Leaves I started writing a story. The characters just kind of popped into my head one night and I wrote a bit about them down in a composition notebook next to my bed. The next few months at school was really their time rather than a time for studying.

Snatches of story would come to me in my brain-dead state while I watched my teachers pace back and forth while speaking their repetitive lessons in monotone. I'd write everything down in the composition notebook that I carried around.

Later I started looking at everything and realized that there was a clear plot line that could be filled in and completed in a nice order. But I hate order and I thought that the nature of the characters would flicker and die if I changed the order of their creation.

So I left the story jumbled and figured that it would always be something that was mine and would never have a chance of being anything really great. That was until a friend of mine took it and started reading when I wasn't near it. I came back and she asked me who wrote it. I told her that I had and she said it was great and that she wanted more.

I put it up on a modified blog website and lots of people read it and liked it, but I figured it was nothing. This dumb little project was still nothing, and didn't even have a chance.

Then I heard about House of Leaves and I bought a copy; and it showed me that it was possible to tell a story that was in order, but not in the order that people generally were used to.

I took my story down about 8 months ago when I realized that I wanted to let it grow up a little bit. I saw that I had all these pieces to add to it written down but I hadn't placed them because of the blog site acting up.

[daemon]

shanks, you hit dead on. the part of you that wants to believe or, in my case, wants it to happen. it played me out to the point where it wouldn't get of my head. there was nothing better than the nightmare it inspired after i finished. it gave me a visual of everything i had read

[blueyelie]

I have to agree with Shadow_girl. This book helps realize that no book has to be set. Everything can be changed; it truly can be. So often times in literature the envelope is never pushed, this book helps realize that it can be.

Now I'm not saying this book is one of a kind, but it one of a kinds. There are other books that do try new things, some fail, some succed, but this book, House of Leaves obviously succeded.

I took this book to my heart in a different way. It is fun to pick apart the codes and the meanings simply as the thread starter stated, like "a bible". The most printed book in history is still up for debate, why can't this one be... besides this is a hell of a lot better than the bible. That book has WAY to many charecters.

Anywho, before I read this book I was stuck in a rut for writing becaus I wanted to do something different. It wasn't something totally different but i wanted to write as if it was happening. In the middle of a conversation and the PHONE RINGS so the charecter walks to go get it. It's something just little like that, and after reading this book it made me realize that writing is an art, and you can do whatever you think will best portray your work.

In regular art, like paintings and what not, people always do new things, so why not in word? After all, the pen is mightier than the sword, so why don't we just bend that sword to be the ultimate weapon?

[Shadow Girl]

Thanks blue. I completely agree with you.

Bend the sword to be the ultimate weapon!
love it.